DNA Proves Existence of a Designer

[downbeatplumb]

Well..that's nice, I guess?  So what,  though?  What you believe and what is true aren't always the same thing.

---

If you say so..but, again, it's not as if it would matter if it didn't...and if you're now appealing to hypocrisy you can only be asserting that what we are both doing (not that you'd know what I'm doing) is wrong.

Not that it's wrong, just that it is something neither one of us can really prove either way. Therefore we are left with using logic. and it is my assertion that the ONLY logical explanation is that higher intelligence created this planet and probably this entire universe.

It is not the only logical explanation, just the only one you can think of.
You are not the sum total of humanity and seem wedded to ancient myths that have clouded your judgement. You aren't the only one many religious people believe in silly things. Look at scientologists and there belief in Xenu.

Look it up, its hilarious.

[pocaracas]

And, my beliefs are built on the ability to apply logic and conclude what is fairly obvious, combined with numerous shared/mutual experiences and signs that have proven God to me beyond any and all doubt.

Ah... experiences... I think you may find that your brain is fully capable of fabricating those experiences, even apparently shared ones, and keep you oblivious to the fact that they were fabricated, instead making you believe that they're real, external occurrences.

If you apply logic to faulty premises, like these faulty brain states, then it is fairly obvious that the outcome is also faulty.

---

Theists are fully aware that higher intelligence was necessary for this to all come to be as it has.

I think you messed up the order here... but it's alright, most theists do that.
Metaphysics, that thing that Thomas Aquinas built up for the Catholic Church, on the shoulders of great Greek thinkers like Plato, posits that the meta-feature of intelligence, call it the concept of intelligence, or the "form" of intelligence, must precede intelligence itself.
God is defined as that which possesses this form, and all other forms, all other meta-features of the world.

So, first humans noticed that there are patterns in the world and they classified those patterns. Then they forgot about this and assumed that the patterns precede the world, leading to the "logical" conclusion that there must be a "pattern origin" that bestows these patterns on everything. The most basic or fundamental pattern being "existence". Without existence, nothing exists, right? God is existence itself, you might say.
But I'm more convinced that existence is a label human minds have attributed to everything that exists, in opposition to things that are imagined... although, one might say that imagined things exist too, it's just that it is a different category of existence to physical existence.
So... even the concept of existence itself has a few caveats to deal with.
If I can say that Darth Vader exists, that the Star Wars Universe exists, even if not as a physical Universe, then, under the same concept of existence, I can easily say that the Christian god exists, just like I can say that the Norse gods exist, or the Egyptian gods, or any of the thousands of gods that mankind has ever believed in.

If I restrict the concept of existence to physical existence, then, along with all fiction, all religions are absent. Consciousness would also be absent, I guess, as it is a product of brain activity, of collective neurologic activity, and this activity would also include imagination... bah...

---

I see God as a massive form of energy that always has been and always will, just like our higher selves.

Our higher selves?.... like souls? the forms, there's that word again, the forms of our individual selves? The personality without memory, without experience? The part of us that precedes our life and carries on after our life? Is that it?

Also, if god somehow generated the cosmos, it stands to reason that god would generate time and space, also known as space-time. But you speak as if god is an entity within time, as if time "precedes" god, as if god requires time in order to exist. Have you ever thought about this? Have you ever tried to be more careful with your words so as to avoid this precedence, because it seems to me that you want to make the case that god precedes everything, even space and time.
I say this because it is well known that empty space-time can bring about particles and energy, so, if space-time precedes god, then a Universe can be brought forth without god's intervention.

I know it's difficult for us lowly humans to think in terms of absence of time. Any action we can imagine requires time. Time is always a prerequisite.
But you want your god notion to have action in the absence of time. You want god to create without building blocks. You want god to do magic.
I want to do magic, too... Ever since I was a very young child... but "there's no such thing as magic" in the real world, in the physical Universe... and "there's no such thing as god" seems like an apt corollary justifying atheism as a logical position.

I'm not even touching in the bit that you mention about god being energy... that's too much woo and this post is already too long.
Thank you for reading it in full, I hope I made some sense and, in the process, made you think and be more careful with the way you present your position.

[Everena]

We don't need meat to live and I do not know one person in the entire world who believes in fairies.

Two more false assertions. 

Meat fairy wrapped us in meat (allegedly), and we definitely need it to live, as do all of the things that eat meat, lol.  If it weren't for us eating each other there wouldn't actually be a bunch of life on this planet for you to remark... in gape jawed wonder, about, like the puddle who marvels at how well the hole fits.

I know that you believe in at least one fairy..you even believe that you know that that least one fairy exists.  You'll reaffirm this hilarious belief by the end of your next breath, below.  

At some point..maybe you'll get something right by accident?

Are you going to pretend that you think food for the approx 7.8 million different species of conscious of life on this planet is just here because we are lucky in that way? Give it a rest. God exists and you will live forever and ever whether you want to or not. HA!

It's here because that food keeps finding other members of the 7.8 million different species to eat.  If they stopped doing that, there wouldn't be anything to eat, or to be eaten.

Jesus christ, metabolism, how does it work!

Additionally, I'm not entirely sure that threatening people with eternal life is going to get you much traction...?

We do NOT need meat to live! We kill animals and eat meat by choice! Oh my god, have you never heard of vegetarians and vegans? Omnivores do not need meat to live and herbivores do not eat meat at all!!  You need to go back to school ASAP!!! And eternal life is almost proven by quantum mechanics and new findings in quantum biology.... what will you do as they get closer and closer to the truth? Go hang your head in shame with all the other x-atheists no doubt.  LOL     

[pocaracas]

Little Rik? Is that you?

[Everena]

Not that it's wrong, just that it is something neither one of us can really prove either way. Therefore we are left with using logic. and it is my assertion that the ONLY logical explanation is that higher intelligence created this planet and probably this entire universe.

It is not the only logical explanation, just the only one you can think of.
You are not the sum total of humanity and seem wedded to ancient myths that have clouded your judgement. You aren't the only one many religious people believe in silly things. Look at scientologists and there belief in Xenu.

Look it up, its hilarious.

We are 93% of humanity and I don't believe in any ancient myths. Check it out 73 scholarly cited sources   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism      I believe in what is obviously true, like higher intelligence being a necessity for the creation of this universe and everything in it.

---

And, my beliefs are built on the ability to apply logic and conclude what is fairly obvious, combined with numerous shared/mutual experiences and signs that have proven God to me beyond any and all doubt.

Ah... experiences... I think you may find that your brain is fully capable of fabricating those experiences, even apparently shared ones, and keep you oblivious to the fact that they were fabricated, instead making you believe that they're real, external occurrences.

If you apply logic to faulty premises, like these faulty brain states, then it is fairly obvious that the outcome is also faulty.

---

Theists are fully aware that higher intelligence was necessary for this to all come to be as it has.

I think you messed up the order here... but it's alright, most theists do that.
Metaphysics, that thing that Thomas Aquinas built up for the Catholic Church, on the shoulders of great Greek thinkers like Plato, posits that the meta-feature of intelligence, call it the concept of intelligence, or the "form" of intelligence, must precede intelligence itself.
God is defined as that which possesses this form, and all other forms, all other meta-features of the world.

So, first humans noticed that there are patterns in the world and they classified those patterns. Then they forgot about this and assumed that the patterns precede the world, leading to the "logical" conclusion that there must be a "pattern origin" that bestows these patterns on everything. The most basic or fundamental pattern being "existence". Without existence, nothing exists, right? God is existence itself, you might say.
But I'm more convinced that existence is a label human minds have attributed to everything that exists, in opposition to things that are imagined... although, one might say that imagined things exist too, it's just that it is a different category of existence to physical existence.
So... even the concept of existence itself has a few caveats to deal with.
If I can say that Darth Vader exists, that the Star Wars Universe exists, even if not as a physical Universe, then, under the same concept of existence, I can easily say that the Christian god exists, just like I can say that the Norse gods exist, or the Egyptian gods, or any of the thousands of gods that mankind has ever believed in.

If I restrict the concept of existence to physical existence, then, along with all fiction, all religions are absent. Consciousness would also be absent, I guess, as it is a product of brain activity, of collective neurologic activity, and this activity would also include imagination... bah...

---

I see God as a massive form of energy that always has been and always will, just like our higher selves.

Our higher selves?.... like souls? the forms, there's that word again, the forms of our individual selves? The personality without memory, without experience? The part of us that precedes our life and carries on after our life? Is that it?

Also, if god somehow generated the cosmos, it stands to reason that god would generate time and space, also known as space-time. But you speak as if god is an entity within time, as if time "precedes" god, as if god requires time in order to exist. Have you ever thought about this? Have you ever tried to be more careful with your words so as to avoid this precedence, because it seems to me that you want to make the case that god precedes everything, even space and time.
I say this because it is well known that empty space-time can bring about particles and energy, so, if space-time precedes god, then a Universe can be brought forth without god's intervention.

I know it's difficult for us lowly humans to think in terms of absence of time. Any action we can imagine requires time. Time is always a prerequisite.
But you want your god notion to have action in the absence of time. You want god to create without building blocks. You want god to do magic.
I want to do magic, too... Ever since I was a very young child... but "there's no such thing as magic" in the real world, in the physical Universe... and "there's no such thing as god" seems like an apt corollary justifying atheism as a logical position.

I'm not even touching in the bit that you mention about god being energy... that's too much woo and this post is already too long.
Thank you for reading it in full, I hope I made some sense and, in the process, made you think and be more careful with the way you present your position.

First of all, I had shared/mutual experiences that were verified on the spot in addition to an enormous amount of other experiences and signs that have proven the existence of God to me beyond any and all doubt. Also, I don't care what you or any other atheist has to say about it and neither does the rest of the world so spare us all your false interpretations and unfounded ideas about things you did not experience and you really have no clue about.


Maybe the concept went over your head. There was a beginning of the observable universe and that is all we are even fairly sure about. We have no idea how big the entire universe even is. God and our true selves have always been and will always be because WE ARE WHAT IS. Conscious intelligent life is eternal. No beginning and no end.  More clear now?

[The Grand Nudger]

We do NOT need meat to live! We kill animals and eat meat by choice! Oh my god, have never heard of vegetarians and vegans? Omnivores do not need meat to live and herbivores do not eat meat at all!!  You need to go back to school ASAP!!! And eternal life is almost proven by quantum mechanics and new findings in quantum biology.... what will you do as they get closer and closer to the truth? Go hang your head in shame with all the other x-atheists no doubt.  LOL 

Oh, stop, lol.  Great flesh making fairy's grand design is heterotrophic.  If it's a shit design it's a shit design.  What kind of designer comes up with shit designs, you reckon?  

Eternal lives proven by quantum biology? Let's see that, lol.

We are 93% of humanity and I don't believe in any ancient myths. Check it out 73 scholaly cited sources   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism      I believe in what is obviously true, like higher intelligence being a necessity for the creation of this universe and everything in it.

You believe in at least one myth..though it might not actually be an ancient one.

[Fidel_Castronaut]

We do NOT need meat to live! We kill animals and eat meat by choice! Oh my god, have never heard of vegetarians and vegans? Omnivores do not need meat to live and herbivores do not eat meat at all!!  You need to go back to school ASAP!!! And eternal life is almost proven by quantum mechanics and new findings in quantum biology.... what will you do as they get closer and closer to the truth? Go hang your head in shame with all the other x-atheists no doubt.  LOL 

Oh, stop, lol.  Great flesh making fairy's grand design is heterotrophic.  If it's a shit design it's a shit design.  What kind of designer comes up with shit designs, you reckon?  

Eternal lives proven by quantum biology?  Let's see that, lol.  

We are 93% of humanity and I don't believe in any ancient myths. Check it out 73 scholaly cited sources   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism      I believe in what is obviously true, like higher intelligence being a necessity for the creation of this universe and everything in it.

You believe in at least one myth..though it might not actually be an ancient one.

You need to go back to school, though.

And not just at some point in the future, ASAP.

Everena, welcome to the forum ^_^ oh boy...

[Peebothuhlu]

At work.

"Quantum biology" ? Dafaq is that? (O_o)

Link? Source (Or sauce? ) please?

[Deesse23]

I not only asserted it, I can prove that science has no idea why we are conscious. There are only hypotheses about it, nothing more. Why don't you look it up instead of pretending you know something that you don't.  

Also, there is no other logical explanation of how everything came to be. "It all just happened naturally dude" is not a logical explanation and it means nothing. Who doesn't believe in the Big Bang? There is a great 3 minute youtube video called "A brief timeline of everything" that is an incredibly beautiful depiction of the Big Bang. Coolest thing any atheist ever shared with me. The Big Bang required intelligence however, whether you choose to believe that or not. Do you really think mere human beings are the highest form of intelligence in an estimated 200 billion galaxies? And how could something conscious and intelligent ever possibly emerge from something that was not conscious or intelligent?

And, my beliefs are built on the ability to apply logic and conclude what is fairly obvious, combined with numerous shared/mutual experiences and signs that have proven God to me beyond any and all doubt.

It is Biology that is claiming it all must have just happened naturally, by some form of mysterious atheist magic I guess.

A scientific hypothesis is based on already established theories, observations and calculations. What you have is a magic book, aka "pulling shit out of your ass". Stop conflating the two, and pretending that even if science was wrong, your fairy tale would be any more true.

We determine what is true not (only) by logic but by gaining data, making experiments and observations, by collecting evidence, Mr. Armchair Philosopher. So wheres the *data* supporting your fairy tale?

"It all happens natually" is actually the best explanation, because it relies on what so far already has been proven, it doesnt involve assertions pulled out of your ass, like invisible sky fairies. In absence of sufficient evidence to convince you of a proposition like "it happened naturally", the only intellectually honest answer is: "I dont know", but not invoking some ancient BS.
For amateurs like you, its much, much more simple, aka: "Its either biology or god, and i reject science". Try to educate yourself about intellectual honesty and false dichotomies.

Your beliefs indeed are based on the ability to apply logic, which you are completely missing. Thats why your beliefs arent very persuasive .

Conflating biology/evolution (or astrophysics for that matter) with atheism is a mistake only the very most ignorant and uninformed apologists are making, you therefore just having proven to be such an ignoramus.

[Everena]

We do NOT need meat to live! We kill animals and eat meat by choice! Oh my god, have you never heard of vegetarians and vegans? Omnivores do not need meat to live and herbivores do not eat meat at all!!  You need to go back to school ASAP!!! And eternal life is almost proven by quantum mechanics and new findings in quantum biology.... what will you do as they get closer and closer to the truth? Go hang your head in shame with all the other x-atheists no doubt.  LOL 

Oh, stop, lol.  Great flesh making fairy's grand design is heterotrophic.  If it's a shit design it's a shit design.  What kind of designer comes up with shit designs, you reckon?  

Eternal lives proven by quantum biology?  Let's see that, lol.  

We are 93% of humanity and I don't believe in any ancient myths. Check it out 73 scholarly cited sources   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism      I believe in what is obviously true, like higher intelligence being a necessity for the creation of this universe and everything in it.

You believe in at least one myth..though it might not actually be an ancient one.

No one believes in fairies, so get over it. God's grand design is awesome and perfect and exactly how it is supposed to be. What are your problems with it? What specifically do not like about God's design?

 Here, new from quantum bio- goes into some of the other theories from quantum mechanics too.  https://www.scientificamerican.com/artic...milestone/