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January 3, 2019 at 6:14 pm (This post was last modified: January 3, 2019 at 6:16 pm by Bucky Ball.)
(January 3, 2019 at 6:04 pm)CDF47 Wrote:
(January 2, 2019 at 11:32 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote: That's exactly correct.
It did not happen "by chance".
As was demonstrated in the Szostack video, (which you were unable to even discuss), "chance " was not how it happened.
Once the evolutionary process has begun, (which wasn't even "chance"), the next step is not "chance.
You clearly understand nothing about chemistry, physics, or evolution. https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn1...is-random/ https://www.patheos.com/blogs/daylightat...nt-chance/ https://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrar...ns_faq.php
Always the deflection and obfuscation. The definition you provided was inadequate, and did not address the questions asked of you.
It almost makes one think you don't even understand the questions. *That* couldn't be, no could it ?
LMAO
You're a total fraud.
I've known it since you first response to my post where you blustered about a "string of logical fallacies" which you couldn't even name.
Quote:Something is either designed or is not. That is my point. Natural selection is an un-designed process, thus, un-directed.
Actually that was NOT your "point". You used the word "chance". That is wrong.
Common ancestry is well-supported by the very same evidence that is accepted in science and law, the world over. DNA
Natural selection is not designed, except in-so-far, that what is selected for, promotes survival in the specific natural environment where the selecting is going on.
That is not chance either.
Every religion is true one way or another. It is true when understood metaphorically. But when it gets stuck in its own metaphors, interpreting them as facts, then you are in trouble. - Joseph Campbell
January 3, 2019 at 6:59 pm (This post was last modified: January 3, 2019 at 7:03 pm by T0 Th3 M4X.)
(January 3, 2019 at 5:46 pm)no one Wrote: The Maximus: You are special. No matter what you ever hear me say, I will never cease to believe that, and I mean that in the nicest conceivable way possible.
I think you are misunderstanding my point. Sure, people are special to each other. Mothers, fathers, children, significant others, friends, all mean something to each other. However, humans as a whole, mean very little. One day they will be extinct, and the universe will continue on as if they never were.
I understand you. Respectfully, I just happen to disagree. You can accomplish whatever you set out to do in life, and hopefully you'll be happy with the outcome. When you figure out what all that means, then that will be what it is that makes you special.
(January 3, 2019 at 6:14 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote:
(January 3, 2019 at 6:04 pm)CDF47 Wrote: Actually that was NOT your "point". You used the word "chance". That is wrong.
Common ancestry is well-supported by the very same evidence that is accepted in science and law, the world over. DNA
Natural selection is not designed, except in-so-far, that what is selected for, promotes survival in the specific natural environment where the selecting is going on.
That is not chance either.
What are you trying to say? Bobo the Chimpazee was your great, great, great, great, etc... uncle?
Quote:Cool. So no need for any other definitions then.
Yes their is and one you need to provide that's actually antiquate to back what your claiming
You provided no definition. Nothing antiquate, nothing defined with you as the subject interpreting. Just nothing. As such, what responsibility and authority do you have to demand any response from me?
No fool. That's NOT what evolution says.
Have you ever thought of completing 6th Grade ?
Every religion is true one way or another. It is true when understood metaphorically. But when it gets stuck in its own metaphors, interpreting them as facts, then you are in trouble. - Joseph Campbell
(January 3, 2019 at 8:57 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote: No fool. That's NOT what evolution says.
Have you ever thought of completing 6th Grade ?
Yet the video you posted suggested that very thing within it's first statement in the first 15 seconds. "Universal Common Decent" + "Every living thing on earth is related to every living thing on earth" It even went on to discuss the "split", so that would make the chimp your cousin, aunt, or uncle. (because if not, it would be a parent) So dependent on how that chain supposedly branched off it would determine the relationship. If Bobo isn't your uncle, your cousin would be Bobo.
Sorry for my tardy response! The holidays were a blur, as I'm sure you can relate! So, I'm hoping that you don't mind if I critique some of the logic you've laid out in your response above. Please understand, I am not criticizing you as a person, nor your emotions as they relate to this experience with your dad. I don't find pleasure in putting others down, but I do think that it is fair to critique an idea or a belief, which is what I will do here. Though you did not explicitly state as such, you seem to be suggesting that because your father recovered after the doctors began praying for him, this would indicate that the cause of his subsequent recovery was the prayer itself. I'm not sure if you are familiar with logical fallacies, but there is one here. In plain language, this is a, 'after it, therefore because of it', fallacy. In other words, just because event B follows event A, this does not necessarily mean that event A caused event B. You would need some supporting evidence for this proposition, and/or be able to demonstrate that you have ruled out other possible causes for your father's recovery; for example, a currently unknown, yet natural cause. This point circle's us back to my original question to you: how can we determine what point is the "point of no return", as you put it? Since we both agree that rare, naturally caused medical phenomena do occur, by what method can we reach the conclusion that an affliction is 'beyond the point of a rare, yet naturally caused healing, and requires a miracle?' If we have no method by which to make this distinction, than we can never reasonably conclude that a miracle had to be the cause. We can’t even conclude that was most likely the cause. Does that make sense? Would you agree with me when I say that a reliable methodology is crucial to reaching conclusions that are highly likely to be true?
Just to make sure I'm understanding you correctly: you're saying that these experiences and interventions by god, don't necessarily lead people to a specific religion, but rather, to the more general notion that things happen to us for a reason that is important to our own individual experience with god. Would that be a correct summation of what you said above? Please correct me if I've misunderstood. I think that, as you said, if we assume for the sake of the argument that a personal god does exist, and does intervene in the lives of humans, than your point is a reasonable one, yes.
Feel free to respond at your leisure, and I hope you had a nice Christmas!
Well, I'm married with two young boys. I'm a dietitian, but currently a stay-at-home mom for the kids until everyone is in school. I was raised Christian (Episcopalian), but Christianity fell apart for me in my late teens. I was in sort of the, "I'm not sure what's out there, but I'm not really interested in thinking about it too hard" camp until about a year after the birth of my first son. For some reason I started spending many nights awake perseverating on that very question, and I came to the conclusion that I didn't have any reasons or evidence to hold onto a belief in god, and it just sort of fell away. I grieved that loss for a long time, but this community has helped me process that grief, and has been personally fulfilling on a number of levels. The people here have become an important part of my life. Hope that helps you understand me a little better! What about you? Any kids? What do you do? Do you identify as a member of a specific religion?
Quote:Sorry for the late response. This thread seems to grow rather quickly and I didn't realize there was a response, the I had to go back and find it when you mentioned it.
- I would have to sorta agree and disagree with your initial statement. I agree that it wasn't conclusive, but I had also mentioned that it was part of a piece of a larger puzzle. That's how life is and some things we believe or make decisions are the culmination of past events. It wasn't even at that time when it led me to be more decisive about the whole matter. Logical fallacies focus on an individual comment or point, and assert that they aren't sufficient on their own. That doesn't mean the overall idea if false. As such, I wasn't saying it was meant to be conclusive. It also wouldn't have been feasible for me to drop everything into one post. Thanks for sharing this though, and I understand where you are coming from.
Sure, so a logical fallacy is simply an error in reasoning. You're correct in that just because someone employs a fallacy to reach a particular conclusion, this does not necessarily mean the conclusion is false. It simply means the reasoning is fallacious. That being said, if there is more to the puzzle that lead you to your god belief, I'd be interested in hearing about the rest of these pieces. Only if you are comfortable sharing, ofc.
Quote:- I would agree with your description about what I was suggesting. I don't believe God asserts less value to someone based on if they are a Christian, an atheist, or hold to any other ideology or belief system. People often use the term "relationship" because that's the underlying idea. At face value, a lot of people tend to focus on the idea of sin, morality, and laws. If I had to describe what is meant by Christianity, my initial thought would be to describe "community." A church can be a building, but "the Church" is the people under God. Things like "sin" are more about disinterest. It doesn't have to be there, but unfortunately it is. If you swapped the word "sin" with "rebellion" then I think that would be an accurate representation. We have things we should follow, but we don't always follow them. It could be for various reasons, but regardless we created a gap that doesn't need to exist. Reconciliation is how that gap is eliminated. Not only it is eliminated, but it is said to be forgotten. The Bible describes it as being cast "as far as the east as from the west" and it's literally forgotten by God. So overall, the idea is to not have those gaps and to function as a community. If we follow the same rules, then we have a more functional community.
I understand. I take issue with many of the tenants of Christianity, but I won't boggle this conversation down with them now. I'm more interested in your reasons for belief, and how you reached your conclusion that a god exists.
Quote:- I understand where you are coming from. It's important to ask ourselves what we believe and why we believe it. I personally believe that it's important to assess personal responsibility. If there is a God, what does that require of me?" It doesn't necessarily mean I'll get the right answer, but it gives me something to ponder. Equally, I have to ask myself "What is God's responsibility to me if He exists?" I don't believe it's just me seeking, but God seeks us as well. In all of it, we meet Him somewhere in the middle. That is relationship.
I would think that any god who desired a personal relationship with his creation would have the ability accomplish this goal without any ambiguity. That is one of my biggest objections to Christianity.
Quote:- So what about me? Short version, I'm a U.S. Army veteran. Was married way back during my Army days. The woman I was married to got pregnant once, but she was on BC, so the baby ended up being stillborn. I grieved over it because I knew a decision "we" made contributed to what had happened. The relationship also gradually dissolved due to Army life, conflict with her family, and I was stationed overseas. I was working long hours, she was bored, and when I got out it all fell apart. So after that, I went back to college, got a dual degree in the social sciences. Almost finished a triple, but I was sick of school and just wanted to focus on career. Worked mostly in severe mental health, mental retardation, and family stabilization. Had a health issue of my own so I had to take time to recover, but at the same time I didn't want to be stagnant, so I became an independent publisher, and not only began publishing my own work, but maybe 50 or so other authors/writers. Have been doing that since. Although I probably sound like I'm a loud mouth here, I'm actually not so much when working with people. I like to be in the background and helping others shine. Currently I live in a community with a decent population of military folk and contractors, so I also enjoy helping out neighbors when they're deployed somewhere. And I can't forget, two hound doggies and two Siamese cats. They're like kids and follow me around everywhere.
I'm so sorry to hear about the loss of your baby. As a parent of two, I can't even fathom that pain. Good on you for your continuing education. I think about going back to school sometimes, but I still have nightmares about being in school previously, lol. Working with the mentally ill takes a special kind of person. I applaud you for that. I worked for a year in a psychiatric ward for children and adolescents. I handed my letter of resignation in 1 day after my one year anniversary. Crazy stuff.
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”
January 3, 2019 at 10:30 pm (This post was last modified: January 3, 2019 at 11:07 pm by Bucky Ball.)
Quote:Beaten again by your own source.
Beaten again by your own stupidity.
As usual you are unable to grasp the simplest of concepts and you missed the TIME elapsed.
Millions of years.
Hate to tell ya, gramps, but no one who descended from a animal which lived millions of years ago is your "uncle" or "cousin",
nor did I ever say they were. Millions of years. Do you know those three words yet ?
Have anyone EVER read anything so utterly STUPID ?
Have a read, and maybe you can get out of 6th Grade. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evol...genus_Homo
Every religion is true one way or another. It is true when understood metaphorically. But when it gets stuck in its own metaphors, interpreting them as facts, then you are in trouble. - Joseph Campbell
Sorry for my tardy response! The holidays were a blur, as I'm sure you can relate! So, I'm hoping that you don't mind if I critique some of the logic you've laid out in your response above. Please understand, I am not criticizing you as a person, nor your emotions as they relate to this experience with your dad. I don't find pleasure in putting others down, but I do think that it is fair to critique an idea or a belief, which is what I will do here. Though you did not explicitly state as such, you seem to be suggesting that because your father recovered after the doctors began praying for him, this would indicate that the cause of his subsequent recovery was the prayer itself. I'm not sure if you are familiar with logical fallacies, but there is one here. In plain language, this is a, 'after it, therefore because of it', fallacy. In other words, just because event B follows event A, this does not necessarily mean that event A caused event B. You would need some supporting evidence for this proposition, and/or be able to demonstrate that you have ruled out other possible causes for your father's recovery; for example, a currently unknown, yet natural cause. This point circle's us back to my original question to you: how can we determine what point is the "point of no return", as you put it? Since we both agree that rare, naturally caused medical phenomena do occur, by what method can we reach the conclusion that an affliction is 'beyond the point of a rare, yet naturally caused healing, and requires a miracle?' If we have no method by which to make this distinction, than we can never reasonably conclude that a miracle had to be the cause. We can’t even conclude that was most likely the cause. Does that make sense? Would you agree with me when I say that a reliable methodology is crucial to reaching conclusions that are highly likely to be true?
Just to make sure I'm understanding you correctly: you're saying that these experiences and interventions by god, don't necessarily lead people to a specific religion, but rather, to the more general notion that things happen to us for a reason that is important to our own individual experience with god. Would that be a correct summation of what you said above? Please correct me if I've misunderstood. I think that, as you said, if we assume for the sake of the argument that a personal god does exist, and does intervene in the lives of humans, than your point is a reasonable one, yes.
Feel free to respond at your leisure, and I hope you had a nice Christmas!
Well, I'm married with two young boys. I'm a dietitian, but currently a stay-at-home mom for the kids until everyone is in school. I was raised Christian (Episcopalian), but Christianity fell apart for me in my late teens. I was in sort of the, "I'm not sure what's out there, but I'm not really interested in thinking about it too hard" camp until about a year after the birth of my first son. For some reason I started spending many nights awake perseverating on that very question, and I came to the conclusion that I didn't have any reasons or evidence to hold onto a belief in god, and it just sort of fell away. I grieved that loss for a long time, but this community has helped me process that grief, and has been personally fulfilling on a number of levels. The people here have become an important part of my life. Hope that helps you understand me a little better! What about you? Any kids? What do you do? Do you identify as a member of a specific religion?
Quote:Sorry for the late response. This thread seems to grow rather quickly and I didn't realize there was a response, the I had to go back and find it when you mentioned it.
- I would have to sorta agree and disagree with your initial statement. I agree that it wasn't conclusive, but I had also mentioned that it was part of a piece of a larger puzzle. That's how life is and some things we believe or make decisions are the culmination of past events. It wasn't even at that time when it led me to be more decisive about the whole matter. Logical fallacies focus on an individual comment or point, and assert that they aren't sufficient on their own. That doesn't mean the overall idea if false. As such, I wasn't saying it was meant to be conclusive. It also wouldn't have been feasible for me to drop everything into one post. Thanks for sharing this though, and I understand where you are coming from.
Sure, so a logical fallacy is simply an error in reasoning. You're correct in that just because someone employs a fallacy to reach a particular conclusion, this does not necessarily mean the conclusion is false. It simply means the reasoning is fallacious. That being said, if there is more to the puzzle that lead you to your god belief, I'd be interested in hearing about the rest of these pieces. Only if you are comfortable sharing, ofc.
Quote:- I would agree with your description about what I was suggesting. I don't believe God asserts less value to someone based on if they are a Christian, an atheist, or hold to any other ideology or belief system. People often use the term "relationship" because that's the underlying idea. At face value, a lot of people tend to focus on the idea of sin, morality, and laws. If I had to describe what is meant by Christianity, my initial thought would be to describe "community." A church can be a building, but "the Church" is the people under God. Things like "sin" are more about disinterest. It doesn't have to be there, but unfortunately it is. If you swapped the word "sin" with "rebellion" then I think that would be an accurate representation. We have things we should follow, but we don't always follow them. It could be for various reasons, but regardless we created a gap that doesn't need to exist. Reconciliation is how that gap is eliminated. Not only it is eliminated, but it is said to be forgotten. The Bible describes it as being cast "as far as the east as from the west" and it's literally forgotten by God. So overall, the idea is to not have those gaps and to function as a community. If we follow the same rules, then we have a more functional community.
I understand. I take issue with many of the tenants of Christianity, but I won't boggle this conversation down with them now. I'm more interested in your reasons for belief, and how you reached your conclusion that a god exists.
Quote:- I understand where you are coming from. It's important to ask ourselves what we believe and why we believe it. I personally believe that it's important to assess personal responsibility. If there is a God, what does that require of me?" It doesn't necessarily mean I'll get the right answer, but it gives me something to ponder. Equally, I have to ask myself "What is God's responsibility to me if He exists?" I don't believe it's just me seeking, but God seeks us as well. In all of it, we meet Him somewhere in the middle. That is relationship.
I would think that any god who desired a personal relationship with his creation would have the ability accomplish this goal without any ambiguity. That is one of my biggest objections to Christianity.
Quote:- So what about me? Short version, I'm a U.S. Army veteran. Was married way back during my Army days. The woman I was married to got pregnant once, but she was on BC, so the baby ended up being stillborn. I grieved over it because I knew a decision "we" made contributed to what had happened. The relationship also gradually dissolved due to Army life, conflict with her family, and I was stationed overseas. I was working long hours, she was bored, and when I got out it all fell apart. So after that, I went back to college, got a dual degree in the social sciences. Almost finished a triple, but I was sick of school and just wanted to focus on career. Worked mostly in severe mental health, mental retardation, and family stabilization. Had a health issue of my own so I had to take time to recover, but at the same time I didn't want to be stagnant, so I became an independent publisher, and not only began publishing my own work, but maybe 50 or so other authors/writers. Have been doing that since. Although I probably sound like I'm a loud mouth here, I'm actually not so much when working with people. I like to be in the background and helping others shine. Currently I live in a community with a decent population of military folk and contractors, so I also enjoy helping out neighbors when they're deployed somewhere. And I can't forget, two hound doggies and two Siamese cats. They're like kids and follow me around everywhere.
I'm so sorry to hear about the loss of your baby. As a parent of two, I can't even fathom that pain. Good on you for your continuing education. I think about going back to school sometimes, but I still have nightmares about being in school previously, lol. Working with the mentally ill takes a special kind of person. I applaud you for that. I worked for a year in a psychiatric ward for children and adolescents. I handed my letter of resignation in 1 day after my one year anniversary. Crazy stuff.
More times than not, you're going to hear about logical fallacies in heated debates and discussion. As far as casual conversation when someone is just sharing, I don't think it's implied too much, but I suppose it can be. As mentioned, I understand where you are coming from though. One part does not equal the whole. That was a matter from my childhood, so figure about 20 years later, and many of the experiences in between as contributing to my belief.
I guess you could call the "breaking point" some years later. As I mentioned, I was working with people with severe mental health diagnoses. As an avid reader who loves to study anything and everything, I become curious about a common claim the clients were making. Many assumed a demonic presence, so I became curious about the whole idea. So outside of work I became to delve into understanding it all both objectively from what I knew already, and subjectively by evaluating accounts and reading about various perspectives on it. I wouldn't call myself a skeptic in regards to any of it, but someone who is very analytical in study. So during this process, I had some weird, I'll just called then "supernatural manifestations" around me and their actions were very deliberate. I think the best thing to describe it would be "horrific." I remember things like feeling something biting me in my sleep and I woke up with the sensation of pain and nothing there, I had electrical devices going off that definitely weren't on such as alarms and the stereo playing music, and some other really unusual manifestations going on. It was probably the scariest thing I've ever experienced in my life, and I'm not someone who scares easy, but this literally had me trembling. As such, that's what really got me searching. The obvious place for me to go was church. I befriended a pastor and he knew what was going on from what I shared. I sat down with him one morning and he shared something rather peculiar, but I listened. He said God had provided him with a word the previous night and to share it, and he did. It was in 1 Cor 12:3 where it says that nobody can confess "Jesus is Lord" without the Holy Spirit. In all my life I had never experienced such a moment of stubbornness, and very specifically making me not want to speak those words, but there was also something else going on that I didn't understand either, another presence, so I went from extreme stubbornness to trying to speak those words,but I couldn't do it. At the same time I about hit the floor, and the pastor could see I was struggling, so he prayed over me. I will never forget that moment. Something literally let go of me and I could speak those words "Jesus is Lord." That's when it all clicked. Some years later I can still remember it all vividly, but my life is also very different. I don't worry about manifestations, and I know who Jesus is. As such, I live a normal life and try to keep Jesus as the foundation. Sometimes I fail, but it's still good. Back to that state of not fearing things, but also having a clearer understanding of what this all means. Someone will probably tell me I can't prove those experiences and they would be right. I can't show someone that time in my life. But nobody I knew then would even dare say something happened that didn't change me in some way, and very rapidly, and I'll go to my grave telling that point of my life just like that. That was the day I became a Christian. May 1, 2007
In light of all of it, there is one scripture that guides how I view life.
Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
I realized that even the worst things can be used to find truth, and as such they serve a purpose. I might not understand completely, but it gives me a brighter outlook on life.
I think why it happened like that was because I was seeking. I just wanted to understand something so I started looking with no certain expectations as to what I would fine.
Jeremiah 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
Prov 8:17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.
Luke 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
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