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RE: The moral argument, for atheism!
June 29, 2018 at 10:17 pm
(June 29, 2018 at 10:11 pm)Jehanne Wrote: (June 29, 2018 at 10:06 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: So, I take it that you have completely abandoned the OP then.
And the question seems to still remain...based on what?
No, not at all.
If there is truly an omnipotent, eternal God who is the source and grounding of all moral truths, then it is reasonable to expect that such a God would reveal such truths to Us, His Creation, and indeed, such a Being would be morally obligated to do so.
Is that an unequivocal moral claim. You seem to be refuting yourself. And ignoring your premise.
Also there is still the question of based on what?
It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man. - Alexander Vilenkin
If I am shown my error, I will be the first to throw my books into the fire. - Martin Luther
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RE: The moral argument, for atheism!
June 29, 2018 at 10:20 pm
Road will continue to play dumb
Seek strength, not to be greater than my brother, but to fight my greatest enemy -- myself.
Inuit Proverb
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RE: The moral argument, for atheism!
June 29, 2018 at 10:23 pm
(June 29, 2018 at 10:17 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: (June 29, 2018 at 10:11 pm)Jehanne Wrote: No, not at all.
If there is truly an omnipotent, eternal God who is the source and grounding of all moral truths, then it is reasonable to expect that such a God would reveal such truths to Us, His Creation, and indeed, such a Being would be morally obligated to do so.
Is that an unequivocal moral claim. You seem to be refuting yourself. And ignoring your premise.
Also there is still the question of based on what?
It's a self-evident claim, kind of like 2+2 = 4.
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RE: The moral argument, for atheism!
June 29, 2018 at 10:31 pm
(June 29, 2018 at 10:23 pm)Jehanne Wrote: (June 29, 2018 at 10:17 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: Is that an unequivocal moral claim. You seem to be refuting yourself. And ignoring your premise.
Also there is still the question of based on what?
It's a self-evident claim, kind of like 2+2 = 4.
Not revealing moral truths is immoral is not self-evident based on your premise. The same way if you set your premise up as god is the source of math who always gives the right answer, then if god says 2+2=5 you can not say he gave the wrong answer! Based on the premise he can not give a wrong answer because he determines how math works.
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RE: The moral argument, for atheism!
June 29, 2018 at 10:35 pm
(June 29, 2018 at 10:31 pm)Mr.wizard Wrote: (June 29, 2018 at 10:23 pm)Jehanne Wrote: It's a self-evident claim, kind of like 2+2 = 4.
Not revealing moral truths is immoral is not self-evident based on your premise. The same way if you set your premise up as god is the source of math who always gives the right answer, then if god says 2+2=5 you can not say he gave the wrong answer! Based on the premise he can not give a wrong answer because he determines how math works.
It's along the lines of a proof by contradiction, but, let's approach it from another angle. Let's assume that God exists and is morally perfect, the source of all moral truth, how would I, as a human being, come to know that?
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RE: The moral argument, for atheism!
June 29, 2018 at 10:44 pm
(June 29, 2018 at 10:35 pm)Jehanne Wrote: (June 29, 2018 at 10:31 pm)Mr.wizard Wrote: Not revealing moral truths is immoral is not self-evident based on your premise. The same way if you set your premise up as god is the source of math who always gives the right answer, then if god says 2+2=5 you can not say he gave the wrong answer! Based on the premise he can not give a wrong answer because he determines how math works.
It's along the lines of a proof by contradiction, but, let's approach it from another angle. Let's assume that God exists and is morally perfect, the source of all moral truth, how would I, as a human being, come to know that?
How you know god is morally perfect isn't important especially when it comes to your proof. You already establish that if god exists he is morally perfect and the source of morality, so the question is if god is the source of morality, what morality are you using to judge god?
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RE: The moral argument, for atheism!
June 29, 2018 at 10:46 pm
(June 29, 2018 at 10:44 pm)Mr.wizard Wrote: (June 29, 2018 at 10:35 pm)Jehanne Wrote: It's along the lines of a proof by contradiction, but, let's approach it from another angle. Let's assume that God exists and is morally perfect, the source of all moral truth, how would I, as a human being, come to know that?
How you know god is morally perfect isn't important especially when it comes to your proof. You already establish that if god exists he is morally perfect and the source of morality, so the question is if god is the source of morality, what morality are you using to judge god?
How do you know that God could not exist and yet be perfectly evil?
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RE: The moral argument, for atheism!
June 29, 2018 at 10:50 pm
(June 29, 2018 at 10:46 pm)Jehanne Wrote: (June 29, 2018 at 10:44 pm)Mr.wizard Wrote: How you know god is morally perfect isn't important especially when it comes to your proof. You already establish that if god exists he is morally perfect and the source of morality, so the question is if god is the source of morality, what morality are you using to judge god?
How do you know that God could not exist and yet be perfectly evil?
Huh? I don't understand this question? Can god not exist and be perfectly evil?
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RE: The moral argument, for atheism!
June 29, 2018 at 10:56 pm
(June 29, 2018 at 10:50 pm)Mr.wizard Wrote: (June 29, 2018 at 10:46 pm)Jehanne Wrote: How do you know that God could not exist and yet be perfectly evil?
Huh? I don't understand this question? Can god not exist and be perfectly evil?
Maybe there is a God who exists but who is perfectly evil (hence, not a "moral lawgiver"):
Evil God Challenge - Wikipedia
Can you disprove the existence such a "being"?
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RE: The moral argument, for atheism!
June 29, 2018 at 11:01 pm
(June 29, 2018 at 10:56 pm)Jehanne Wrote: (June 29, 2018 at 10:50 pm)Mr.wizard Wrote: Huh? I don't understand this question? Can god not exist and be perfectly evil?
Maybe there is a God who exists but who is perfectly evil (hence, not a "moral lawgiver"):
Evil God Challenge - Wikipedia
Can you disprove the existence such a "being"?
No I can not disprove that an evil god does not exist, why would I try. I fail to see what this has to do with your proof, why can't we talk about the god in your premise 1?
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