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RE: Josephus and other contemporaries on Jesus
July 12, 2018 at 12:07 pm
(This post was last modified: July 12, 2018 at 12:13 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
I think you misunderstand the mythicist argument, entirely. It doesn;t rely on an argument from silence..that;s just a supporting addendum. It relies, primarily, on the contents of the gospels themselves in the character of jesus, the surrounding cultural, political, and religious context of the earliest point at which a kernel of the stories could have been concocted, the fact that magic men aren;t real no matter who;s writing about them..and then.,..finally..the fact that there is nothing to contradict this very obvious reading of a religious myth...except, for example..that you hold silly beliefs.
That last part is where the argument from silence is so amusing...not because it would mean anything by itself, but juxtaposed against how well evidenced you imagine a mythical character to be. Even the very religious understand the mythicist argument..they seemlessly apply it to a whole range of other heroes..but when it comes to their hero we;ll hear "but what about all the evidence!?!"...there;s only one cogent response...what evidence...?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Josephus and other contemporaries on Jesus
July 12, 2018 at 12:45 pm
(This post was last modified: July 12, 2018 at 12:46 pm by RoadRunner79.)
(July 12, 2018 at 12:07 pm)Khemikal Wrote: I think you misunderstand the mythicist argument, entirely. It doesn;t rely on an argument from silence..that;s just a supporting addendum. It relies, primarily, on the contents of the gospels themselves in the character of jesus, the surrounding cultural, political, and religious context of the earliest point at which a kernel of the stories could have been concocted, the fact that magic men aren;t real no matter who;s writing about them..and then.,..finally..the fact that there is nothing to contradict this very obvious reading of a religious myth...except, for example..that you hold silly beliefs.
That last part is where the argument from silence is so amusing...not because it would mean anything by itself, but juxtaposed against how well evidenced you imagine a mythical character to be. Even the very religious understand the mythicist argument..they seemlessly apply it to a whole range of other heroes..but when it comes to their hero we;ll hear "but what about all the evidence!?!"...there;s only one cogent response...what evidence...?
I don't think that once you are making a claim, you can then fall back on skepticism. At least not without retracting the claim. Even as supporting evidence, it isn't that strong, when you start asking (looking at) who and where you think should have wrote otherwise.
It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man. - Alexander Vilenkin
If I am shown my error, I will be the first to throw my books into the fire. - Martin Luther
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RE: Josephus and other contemporaries on Jesus
July 12, 2018 at 1:41 pm
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RE: Josephus and other contemporaries on Jesus
July 12, 2018 at 3:15 pm
It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man. - Alexander Vilenkin
If I am shown my error, I will be the first to throw my books into the fire. - Martin Luther
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RE: Josephus and other contemporaries on Jesus
July 12, 2018 at 3:37 pm
(This post was last modified: July 12, 2018 at 3:44 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(July 12, 2018 at 12:45 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: (July 12, 2018 at 12:07 pm)Khemikal Wrote: I think you misunderstand the mythicist argument, entirely. It doesn;t rely on an argument from silence..that;s just a supporting addendum. It relies, primarily, on the contents of the gospels themselves in the character of jesus, the surrounding cultural, political, and religious context of the earliest point at which a kernel of the stories could have been concocted, the fact that magic men aren;t real no matter who;s writing about them..and then.,..finally..the fact that there is nothing to contradict this very obvious reading of a religious myth...except, for example..that you hold silly beliefs.
That last part is where the argument from silence is so amusing...not because it would mean anything by itself, but juxtaposed against how well evidenced you imagine a mythical character to be. Even the very religious understand the mythicist argument..they seemlessly apply it to a whole range of other heroes..but when it comes to their hero we;ll hear "but what about all the evidence!?!"...there;s only one cogent response...what evidence...?
I don't think that once you are making a claim, you can then fall back on skepticism. At least not without retracting the claim. Even as supporting evidence, it isn't that strong, when you start asking (looking at) who and where you think should have wrote otherwise.
Falling back on skepticism? Here again, that;s was at the very end of the line and for people who don;t believe in fairies..it;s hardly worth mentioning. The only reason I have to say it..is because I;m speaking to someone who does. The primary support for the mythicist argument..again... is your precious gospel...lol.
The question regarding the NT isn;t whether or not it;s true..we know that it isn;t. The question is whether or not the fiction contained within is primarily legendary, or uniquely mythological. The contents of the NT, the composition of the NT, and the circumstances if its construction strongly point to the latter.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Josephus and other contemporaries on Jesus
July 12, 2018 at 3:52 pm
(July 12, 2018 at 3:37 pm)Khemikal Wrote: The question regarding the NT isn;t whether or not it;s true..we know that it isn;t.
How do you know that?
It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man. - Alexander Vilenkin
If I am shown my error, I will be the first to throw my books into the fire. - Martin Luther
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RE: Josephus and other contemporaries on Jesus
July 12, 2018 at 3:59 pm
(This post was last modified: July 12, 2018 at 4:04 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Ask your own friendly christian scholarship how it knows that the entire book of acts is fiction, as one example. The determination is even easier for people who don;t have an overriding ideological commitment to magic books.
This is why, btw, that these convos go poorly. You have a compelling need to exclaim "its twoo, it;s twoo, it;s twoo" in every possible variation of the phrase....and that means that you'll never actually get around to discussing the mythicist position. That the character of christ found in the NT was constructed specifically as a vehicle for theology.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Josephus and other contemporaries on Jesus
July 12, 2018 at 4:02 pm
(July 12, 2018 at 3:59 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Ask your own friendly christian scholarship how it knows that the entire book of acts is fiction, as one example. The determination is even easier for people who don;t have an overriding ideological commitment to magic books.
I asked you!
It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man. - Alexander Vilenkin
If I am shown my error, I will be the first to throw my books into the fire. - Martin Luther
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RE: Josephus and other contemporaries on Jesus
July 12, 2018 at 4:05 pm
(This post was last modified: July 12, 2018 at 4:07 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Don;t you think that;s a bit pointless? Unless I tell you that christ died on the cross for our sins and rose three days later...you;re not going to believe that a word I have to say is accurate, lol. Any discussion of the composition of mythological narratives is going to have -you- "falling back on skepticism".......
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Josephus and other contemporaries on Jesus
July 12, 2018 at 4:09 pm
(July 12, 2018 at 4:05 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Don;t you think that;s a bit pointless? Unless I tell you that christ died on the cross for our sins and rose three days later...you;re not going to believe that a word I have to say is accurate, lol. Any discussion of the composition of mythological narratives is going to have -you- "falling back on skepticism".......
I can speak for myself thanks. So what is your reasons and or evidence for that claim you made?
It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man. - Alexander Vilenkin
If I am shown my error, I will be the first to throw my books into the fire. - Martin Luther
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