The death penalty makes no sense.

[The Grand Nudger]

The idea is that if we lived in an entirely different world some people may have no moral objections to the death penalty.  In response..I maintain that if we lived in an entirely different world then my wifes left nipple would dispense guinness..and the right would pour neverending shots of jack.

I think it's more likely that a person could come up with plenty of moral objections even if we did live in that other world where we got things right and the guy was a monster..if they sat down and thought out every ramification.  Ultimately, whether or not we object to the death penalty on moral grounds...and whether or not it is just (these are distinct issues) has less to do with what that person did than what we are willing to do, what we are willing to become, how we will arrange our society. Yes, he killed someone..but thats a seperate act from what we are about to do..which is to kill someone.

Focusing on that person (and even moreso inventing alternate realities) allows us to defer that consideration and reaffirm our emotional response. Instead of considering what we are about to do..we consider who we are about to do it to.

[mlmooney89]

I could care less if it's revenge driven. Y'all say that like it should change my mind.

I'm not above saying the death penalty is flawed and needs a serious overall but I don't want to get rid of it. I want the person who is witnessed by cameras or lots of people killing others to die. The kid that shot up the Aurora movie theater- kill him. The person that shot up Los Vegas during the concerts- kill em. Guy that shot up the church? Kill em. Guy that killed everyone from the UT tower? Kill em. (Yes I know most of people in these situations end up dead by either self inflicted GSW or are brought down before the end of the stand off but for those that aren't) Have pictures of yourself with your victims' body for your sick photo album? Get caught red handed? Kill the sick fucks. You will not sway my mind with "justice".

[The Grand Nudger]

I could care less if it's revenge driven. Y'all say that like it should change my mind.

Well..no, because the death penalty doesn't have anything to do with whether or not you can or will or want to change your mind.  If you continued to feel about it the same way you do from now until the day you die that won't actually effect whether or not the death penalty makes sense, is morally acceptable, or is just.  

I'm not above saying the death penalty is flawed and needs a serious overall but I don't want to get rid of it. I want the person who is witnessed by cameras or lots of people killing others to die. The kid that shot up the Aurora movie theater- kill him. The person that shot up Los Vegas during the concerts- kill em. Guy that shot up the church? Kill em. Guy that killed everyone from the UT tower? Kill em. (Yes I know most of people in these situations end up dead by either self inflicted GSW or are brought down before the end of the stand off but for those that aren't) Have pictures of yourself with your victims' body for your sick photo album? Get caught red handed? Kill the sick fucks. You will not sway my mind with "justice".

You can want a person to die from here to eternity....that doesn't have much to do with whether or not we should kill them.  Our bloodlust is not a compelling reason to make the state into an executioner. We can acknowledge the former without engaging in the latter. The death penalty is part of our system of justice...saying that justice doesn't sway you in a discussion on how we mete out justice entirely cedes the ground. What you are expressing is premeditation, what you are displaying is malice aforethought. You want to murder the murderer..but if murderers should be murdered........you can see how this all starts to spiral in on itself?

I also enjoy it when assholes get got. Unlike many people who have a similar personal experience..I'm actually willing to do the work...but I can still understand why it's not the brightest or best idea we've ever had. To the extent that anyone would want to change your mind about this..they're probably operating on the assumption that you are more morally bound, more just, and more sensible in this than your opinions on the subject might at first suggest. They're not trying to get you to feel differently about these people, they're trying to bring you to your own understanding of how and why it's a bad idea regardless of how we feel about it.

[mlmooney89]

Also to my points.

1) I've been in prison visiting someone often. They are overcrowded. I've heard the first hand stories of how crowded. Yes revamping who goes to prison will fix it but killing the murderers will put a dent in it.
2) Burden on society wasn't about money it was everything in general. Maintaining and caring for the life of someone that has killed in cold blood isn't worth it. Money spent on killing them is. Although I'm not against a single gunshot to the head but hey I'm old fashioned.
3) We can argue this point all day long but it is still punishment. Do something wrong you get punished. Kill someone your punishment is death. You are more arguing about how effective of a punishment it is not whether it IS punishment. If they have the thought "I don't want to die" it is punishment.
4) I could go on and on about this but an eye for an eye. You kill you get killed. I don't care if it hurts another family because you did that to them by killing someone, it's your own fault not the governments. You caused one family to hurt and mourn the loss of a loved one you caused your own family to do the same. I don't see how any of this is laid at the government's feet.


Mind you I am talking about real criminals that made a decision to kill. Kids in gangs killing for the gangs, drunk people, accidental deaths, deaths for inheritance, any death that can't be proven... none of those are worthy of the death penalty. THAT is what needs to be fixed. Who we find 'worthy'. Even DNA isn't acceptable proof because families can be similar and people have multiple sets of DNA in rare cases.

[The Grand Nudger]

Also to my points.

1) I've been in prison visiting someone often. They are overcrowded. I've heard the first hand stories of how crowded. Yes revamping who goes to prison will fix it but killing the murderers will put a dent in it.

It won't..they will immediately fill their places.  They do so on purpose, because of a profit motive..and they even make counties sign contracts explicitly allowing them to do it before they break ground on a prison.

2) Burden on society wasn't about money it was everything in general. Maintaining and caring for the life of someone that has killed in cold blood isn't worth it. Money spent on killing them is. Although I'm not against a single gunshot to the head but hey I'm old fashioned.

Worth what?  What is "it"..if "it" is not money?  

3) We can argue this point all day long but it is still punishment. Do something wrong you get punished. Kill someone your punishment is death. You are more arguing about how effective of a punishment it is not whether it IS punishment. If they have the thought "I don't want to die" it is punishment.

Not all punishment is just, sensible, moral, effective, or financially sound. The death penalty is one of the few things that runs afoul of every one of those categories simultaneously.

4) I could go on and on about this but an eye for an eye. You kill you get killed. I don't care if it hurts another family because you did that to them by killing someone, it's your own fault not the governments. You caused one family to hurt and mourn the loss of a loved one you caused your own family to do the same. I don't see how any of this is laid at the government's feet.

It doesn't have to be..but if the government becomes the executioner any and all problems with the process are unavoidably their responsibility.  That makes them our responsibility.  It's our government (allegedly, lol  ) 

Mind you I am talking about real criminals that made a decision to kill. Kids in gangs killing for the gangs, drunk people, accidental deaths, deaths for inheritance, any death that can't be proven... none of those are worthy of the death penalty. THAT is what needs to be fixed. Who we find 'worthy'. Even DNA isn't acceptable proof because families can be similar and people have multiple sets of DNA in rare cases.

How, with that list of caveats..could you even decide who the "real criminals" are?

[Angrboda]

I could care less if it's revenge driven. Y'all say that like it should change my mind.

The point is to question whether your support of the death penalty is driven by rational and ethical reasons. If your advocacy of the death penalty is driven only by a motive of revenge, then it is not. Such reasons don't support the appropriateness of the death penalty.

[Cyberman]

Also to my points.

1) I've been in prison visiting someone often. They are overcrowded. I've heard the first hand stories of how crowded. Yes revamping who goes to prison will fix it but killing the murderers will put a dent in it.

It won't..they will immediately fill their places.  They do so on purpose, because of a profit motive..and they even make counties sign contracts explicitly allowing them to do it before they break ground on a prison.

I'm not exactly au fait with prison population stats, but do murderers make up a large enough proportion to make a significant difference on prison crowding?

[The Grand Nudger]

Depends on the prison.  But..as per the BOP....including homicide, aggravated assault, and kidnapping as one category, 3.3%

https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/sta...fenses.jsp

If we wanted to clear beds in prisons by killing people..we'd start with the potheads.....but we'd just fill them back up anyway.

[Jehanne]

I could care less if it's revenge driven. Y'all say that like it should change my mind.

I'm not above saying the death penalty is flawed and needs a serious overall but I don't want to get rid of it. I want the person who is witnessed by cameras or lots of people killing others to die. The kid that shot up the Aurora movie theater- kill him. The person that shot up Los Vegas during the concerts- kill em. Guy that shot up the church? Kill em. Guy that killed everyone from the UT tower? Kill em. (Yes I know most of people in these situations end up dead by either self inflicted GSW or are brought down before the end of the stand off but for those that aren't) Have pictures of yourself with your victims' body for your sick photo album? Get caught red handed? Kill the sick fucks. You will not sway my mind with "justice".

You could never serve on a capital jury, for your views are so prejudice as to be unwilling, a prior, to weighing aggravating versus mitigating evidence.  You're entitled to your views, of course, but the death penalty is in decline:

[Brian37]

I could care less if it's revenge driven. Y'all say that like it should change my mind.

I'm not above saying the death penalty is flawed and needs a serious overall but I don't want to get rid of it. I want the person who is witnessed by cameras or lots of people killing others to die. The kid that shot up the Aurora movie theater- kill him. The person that shot up Los Vegas during the concerts- kill em. Guy that shot up the church? Kill em. Guy that killed everyone from the UT tower? Kill em. (Yes I know most of people in these situations end up dead by either self inflicted GSW or are brought down before the end of the stand off but for those that aren't) Have pictures of yourself with your victims' body for your sick photo album? Get caught red handed? Kill the sick fucks. You will not sway my mind with "justice".

Easy to say when you are not falsely accused. And, while I don't know your personal income, you do know that laws exist, even if you have money to defend yourself, those funds can be blocked to prevent you from using them to defend yourself.

Again, this is nothing more than emotional armchair quarterbacking based on a utopia that will never exist.

Instead of bemoaning your good intent, you should study history and all the victims of your good intent.

It DOES NOT need to be overhauled, it needs to be scrapped. Both for tax payers reasons and moral reasons.