On Hell and Forgiveness

[vorlon13]

GE 1:31 God was pleased with his creation.
GE 6:5-6 God was not pleased with his creation.


God CANNOT be omniscient, therefore.

I am glad to have cleared that up for EVERYONE.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

If Hell exists and God is omniscient and omnipotent, then He is continually creating people that He knows (and always has known) are going to suffer for all eternity. A merciful, compassionate God would find it more fitting that such human beings never exist at all.

Put THAT in your shoe and sniff it, theology.

Boru

[Amarok]

Gee, and where do you suppose Rowling got it from? Why do we Westerners take so much of our intellectual and moral heritage for granted as if they always existed? The values and principles that inform our thinking did not spring up out of nowher

And why do Christians assume they are the sum total of western civilization or that their influence was replaceable or overstated to begin with .

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And Steve is just peddling victim blaming while assuming human need to atone for anything to his magic sky genie .

[RoadRunner79]

Yeah, LadyForCamus, how dare you assume who will god send to hell based on the Bible, like verses:

Galatians 2:16
A man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ.

Romans 3:28
A man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 3:18, 36
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already .... He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

When you should have gone with not what is actually in the Bible but what SteveII wants it to be in the Bible.

On more nuanced subjects regarding Christianity, I check your posts to see if it is possible someone might think you have a point. That could be the case here, so let me correct that now.

When I say that people go to hell because their sins have not been atoned for--that is the correct/precise/plain/simple reason. You could ask how one gets that atonement--then you would find verses like those above. Jesus is the actual atonement that one needs to have their slates wiped clean.

Excellent post above. However there are some groups that believe in works based salvation which is a large part of why the Reformers left the Catholic Church. If I where to get into a nuanced discussion of this theology, I would say that it is not by works at all, and that when people say that belief is not just an intellectual acknowledgement, for even the demons believe. What they are talking about is that you need to have Jesus as Lord, in order for him to stand for them. But there are those who think that being a good person and following Jesus’s teachings will get them into heaven. For them these issues or questions would seem to still apply.

It is interesting, I only briefly glanced at the scriptures posed to you here. I assumed that they where about works. But they seem to support what you are saying. However they appear to be posed against it.

[Mystic]

Gee, and where do you suppose Rowling got it from? Why do we Westerners take so much of our intellectual and moral heritage for granted as if they always existed? The values and principles that inform our thinking did not spring up out of nowhere.

I bust on MK, because I’ve tried, over and over, to have reasonable discussions with him, and all I ever get back is, ‘the Quran is true because it’s magic. You are lazy and in denial.’  I’ve decided to give him a taste of his own medicine going forward.

I'm laying out the facts as I perceive them. I can't only bring you to the water hole, can't make you drink it.

[Neo-Scholastic]

Go ahead, divorce that whole story (Gen 6) from God's holiness/justice/love/mercy and make the case for 'emotions'.

God says quite explicitly in Genesis 6 that he will blot them out "for I am sorry that I made them."  It couldn't be any plainer than that Steve.  Action, followed by cause.  You can certainly suggest that his wiping them out was just, but God is quite clear on his motive here.

Yeah, sure, it says that. Now tell us its significance as part of the biblical narrative.

[robvalue]

It seems to me that a lot of luck is involved. Let's pretend I'm a Christian, and I'm the right denomination that gets to go into heaven. I have to atone for sins or else I get refused entry. I need to do this periodically, because as we all know, humans are incapable of being sinless.

So what happens if I suddenly die right after committing some minor sin, before I've had the chance to atone for it? Presumably, I'm fucked. I need to die in such a way that I have enough time to scramble for forgiveness before I pop off. If I just drop dead, or get shot in the head, then off to hell I go.

[RoadRunner79]

It seems to me that a lot of luck is involved. Let's pretend I'm a Christian, and I'm the right denomination that gets to go into heaven. I have to atone for sins or else I get refused entry. I need to do this periodically, because as we all know, humans are incapable of being sinless.

So what happens if I suddenly die right after committing some minor sin, before I've had the chance to atone for it? Presumably, I'm fucked. I need to die in such a way that I have enough time to scramble for forgiveness before I pop off. If I just drop dead, or get shot in the head, then off to hell I go.

I would say that you cannot atone for your sins, so no worries. That is why you need Christ; to be the atonement.

[Angrboda]

God says quite explicitly in Genesis 6 that he will blot them out "for I am sorry that I made them."  It couldn't be any plainer than that Steve.  Action, followed by cause.  You can certainly suggest that his wiping them out was just, but God is quite clear on his motive here.

Yeah, sure, it says that. Now tell us its significance as part of the biblical narrative.

I don't have to in order to sustain my point. But if you feel it affects my point any, why don't you demonstrate how. Otherwise this is just a red herring.

[robvalue]

We get enough of those on this forum to make up the Red Sea.