3 simple points to end the discussion with any atheist

[WinterHold]

Hello!

I'm new here but your post caught my eye.

1-Ask about the design of the universe: this question is very embarrassing to atheists, because the universe is full of signs. From the human body to mathematics, to the value of PI, the universe seems like a pattern designed by the same entity.

2-Open up the topic of time: human life is timed. Literally there is a cosmic clock, and the sun gives the time for earth. Why do the odds stack up in this life?

3-Why do we have consciousness?

 1) ? What 'Design ? I do not see anything implicitly designed. I see no design in rocks. In stellar formations. 'Signs' ? What do you mean by 'Signs'? SO, you're saying that things such as 'Cancer' and 'Floods' are also designed?

Hi there, welcome.

First thing I'll point at are the orbits of planets (it's what made me write this anyways). All planets in our solar system rotate the sun anti-clockwise , moreover you've got the relationships between everything that make them fall right into our scope of logic: just like pieces of a puzzle. Science would never make sense unless the pieces "fit together".

In other words; what coincidence that our eyes understand the message they are seeing, and the message they are seeing make follow the same pattern over and over, and what a coincidence that the pattern can be "studied" and being written what would later be known as "science".

 2) ? Huh ? The Sun does not give the Earth its 'Time'. It is the Earth's rotation which creates a 'Night' and 'Day cycle. If there us a 'Cosmic clock'... why do all the planets in this solar system rotate at different speeds? Why doesn't Venus rotate at the same speed or direction as Earth? They are very similarly sized stellar bodies after all.

Without the star, the night/day cycle would never happen; thus time would be an oblivious matter to us.

3) As an emergent property of a nervous/nerological system I believe it 'Just is'. The same as can be seen in diefferent foms in other animals. Many other primates exhibit awarness of self. As do some birds. Heck, I believe there has even been tests done on certain moluscs which seem to show that 'They' have a sense of 'Self.

I never said that other creatures don't have a "weaker sense" of consciousness, actually there is a lot of explicit evidence in the Quran that creatures do sense and think.

Cheers.

[Brian37]

Atlass please stop thinking Muslims are the only religion to argue that science matches their holy book.

Christians and Hindus and Jews and Buddhists have apologists too whom all try to match modern science to their old mythology.

[WinterHold]

1-Ask about the design of the universe: this question is very embarrassing to atheists, because the universe is full of signs. From the human body to mathematics, to the value of PI, the universe seems like a pattern designed by the same entity.

Let's take a quick look at your God's perfect design, using human symbols, because that is the way we do things. And, again, Math is a human construct.
A day = 23 hours 56 minutes and 4.1 seconds, and it dies change, albeit very slowly.
A year = 365.2422 days.
A lunar month = 29.53059 earth days.
pi = 3.14159265358979... I could post it to the first 10,000 numbers if you like.  It is certainly not 3 as claimed in the old testament.
Distance from the earth to the sum ranges from about 146 million kilometres to  152 kilometres, depending on the time of year.
I could go on.  If there was a God who "designed" the Universe, he did a pretty ordinary "not perfect but uesday" job of it.
Norm

You only convinced me more that we are finite beings with limited calculation methods (maybe even primitive); you can't calculate what infinity is because you and I are so limited. That's an indication of the existence of something far greater to infinite levels beyond my scope. So I refer to him as God. You only showed me the limitation of our scope.

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Hmm.  Ten replies in about an hour.  Doesn't seem to have ended the discussion, does it?

Boru

It did end because I wasn't convinced.
You see, eventually it's a matter of choice. I didn't get an answer that changed my choice.

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3-Why do we have consciousness?

Because we evolved as pack animals that have to co-ordinate our actions with others. This means being able to predict the actions of others and work alongside them. This requires a sense of self.

Actually even non-pack animals benefit from conscious for much the same reasons. It is easier to predict the action of your prey if you can imagine being in the same situation. This is far more flexible than evolving a response to every possible situation.

It also serves as a check and balance on the current behaviour being employed.

Consciousness improves the evolutionary fitness of the species.

That's not to say that we are always conscious of our actions though. Emotions and instinct work as a counter balance. Cognition widens the range of possible behaviours that an agent may use, while emotion and instinct narrows them to strategies favoured by evolution. Thus people can have emotional reactions without understanding why. Consciousness helps them spot when this balancing act isn't working so well.

This sounds very logical and I find it hard to argue with it.

My only objection would be that other creatures that also hunt, did not evolve the same way we did: neither on physical terms or psychological terms, why didn't lizards evolve like us, and why did chimps didn't also?

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Maybe you should be more concerned with trying to listen and learn than ending conversations with "gotchas".

I always listen !

[Gawdzilla Sama]

But you never learn.

[Deesse23]

All planets in our solar system rotate the sun anti-clockwise

How would the planets rotate in a non-designed solar system, and why?

moreover you've got the relationships between everything that make them fall right into our scope of logic: just like pieces of a puzzle. Science would never make sense unless the pieces "fit together".

Word salad.

In other words; what coincidence that our eyes understand the message they are seeing, and the message they are seeing make follow the same pattern over and over, and what a coincidence that the pattern can be "studied" and being written what would later be known as "science".

More word salad.

Without the star, the night/day cycle would never happen; thus time would be an oblivious matter to us.

So what? So design?
You are the king of non-sequiturs .

actually there is a lot of explicit evidence in the Quran that creatures do sense and think.

No, there is no evidence for consciousness in the Quran. Neither Mo nor Allah are neuroscientists. One because he doesnt exist, the other because he was an illiterate warlord.
At best there is a claim in the Quran about something, but there are many other claims in the Quran about many other things too....

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You only convinced me more that we are finite beings with limited calculation methods (maybe even primitive); you can't calculate what infinity is because you and I are so limited. That's an indication of the existence of something far greater to infinite levels beyond my scope. So I refer to him as God.

The concept of infinity exists, therefore god? Therefore infinity is god? Did i mention you are the king of non-sequiturs?

[SaStrike]

This seemed to have caused discussion not end it, nice.

[unfogged]

All planets in our solar system rotate the sun anti-clockwise

That depends on how you look at it; they all orbit the sun in the same general direction but it is not counter-clockwise from all vantage points.  Further, the orbits are not in exactly the same plane and the individual planets may revolve in different directions and at vastly different rates.  Many moons have retrograde orbits.  Overall, there's a lot of symmetry and a lot of chaos.  It doesn't look designed unless you are willing to ignore all the things that don't fit your preconceived notions.

, moreover you've got the relationships between everything that make them fall right into our scope of logic: just like pieces of a puzzle. Science would never make sense unless the pieces "fit together".

Science investigates how the natural universe operates.  If it operated differently then science would come to different conclusions.

In other words; what coincidence that our eyes understand the message they are seeing, and the message they are seeing make follow the same pattern over and over, and what a coincidence that the pattern can be "studied" and being written what would later be known as "science".

No coincidence at all.  We evolved in this universe so it is not surprising that we fit into a place in it and have managed to start making some sense of it.  

 2) ? Huh ? The Sun does not give the Earth its 'Time'. It is the Earth's rotation which creates a 'Night' and 'Day cycle. If there us a 'Cosmic clock'... why do all the planets in this solar system rotate at different speeds? Why doesn't Venus rotate at the same speed or direction as Earth? They are very similarly sized stellar bodies after all.

Without the star, the night/day cycle would never happen; thus time would be an oblivious matter to us.

That's just too inane to even consider.  We see change all around us constantly and that's all that would be needed for a sense of time.

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My only objection would be that other creatures that also hunt, did not evolve the same way we did: neither on physical terms or psychological terms, why didn't lizards evolve like us, and why did chimps didn't also?

Those species adapted to their environments using other strategies.  Why aren't humans as strong as chimps?  Why don't we have eyesight as good as eagles?  Why can't we run as fast as a horse?

I always listen !

[Peebothuhlu]

At work.

It would seem Unfogged has done a bang up job of replying to you AtlasS33.

Good-O!

[Angrboda]

Hmm.  Ten replies in about an hour.  Doesn't seem to have ended the discussion, does it?

Boru

It did end because I wasn't convinced.
You see, eventually it's a matter of choice. I didn't get an answer that changed my choice.

That's because you chose to end the discussion, not because of any inherent quality in the points you raised. Anybody can end any conversation with anybody else regarding any points on similar grounds, that doesn't say anything about the value of those points or about the reasonableness of those who you have approached. Your threshold of whether a discussion should or should not end is whether or not you are convinced, but since you're an ignorant twat, that's an irrelevant criteria. I could say that I have one point to end discussion with a Muslim, namely "Allah does not exist," and end discussion by being equally unconvinced by any of their answers -- what exactly would that prove? Does that prove that the point "Allah does not exist," is a good one that can't be reasonably answered by a Muslim? No, it doesn't prove anything. Similarly, your three points don't prove anything if your walking away from discussion is your criteria for having them shown their value.

All you've done here, besides stir up conversation, is show that you're a stupid douche bag.

I said when you first came here that you are ignorant and stupid, all your answer here does is prove it.

[DodosAreDead]

Without the star, the night/day cycle would never happen; thus time would be an oblivious matter to us.

What the fuck's that got to do with god? Life on Earth emerged slowly because conditions were hospitable. Do other planets in our solar system not have the night/day cycle? Do they not have time? Then why didn't you god create life there?