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RE: How Can We Have Moral Direction If God Controls Everything?
October 12, 2018 at 1:37 pm
(October 11, 2018 at 10:41 am)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: (October 11, 2018 at 12:00 am)vulcanlogician Wrote: But what about Calvinists? I'm asking. Cuz I don't know. Apparently they don't believe in free will.
I think they are more compatablist oriented. They'll have to answer for themselves. Otherwise, talking about free-will vs. determinism is messy because you cannot do it without having a defined theory of time and clear ontology. IMHO we have to muddle through this one, make some tentative assumptions, and live in accordance with what our philosophy entails. One persistent question is this. If my deeds are inevitable why is the illusion of consciously deliberation and control even needed? Thoughts and feelings would be just along for the ride, so to speak. Personally, I agree with Sartre (or was it Camus, not sure) that Man is condemned to be free. I cannot imagine what it would be like to live under the presumption that my entire being follows mechanically from the initial conditions of the physical universe. YMMV.
(October 11, 2018 at 9:48 am)RoadRunner79 Wrote: I am guessing, that you are going to reference God hardening the heart of Pharaoh or something like that.
The same life-giving sun that softens butter will harden clay.
The problem with this argument is that Pharaoh tried over and over to release the Hebrews. Every time Pharaoh determined to let the people go that's when god hardened his heart. That was god taking deliberate action against the man's inclination to do what was right.
The god who created man out of clay shouldn't blame the clay for not acting like butter.
The purpose of this thread is not to determine whether humans have free will or even whether the bible supports our free will. The purpose of this thread is theists using the idea of god's will to justify everything. Even things over which we have no control.
Whether it's a hurricane, a child contracting cancer or christians getting gunned down in church, christians justify their continued belief in a god who allows such things by saying it's all a part of his mysterious will.
And yes, Whether it's slavery or genocide or the election of a bad president, it is christians who hide behind god's will.
The god who allows children to be raped out of respect for the free will choice of the rapist, but punishes gay men for engaging in mutually consensual sex couldn't possibly be responsible for an intelligently designed universe.
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RE: How Can We Have Moral Direction If God Controls Everything?
August 21, 2021 at 8:21 pm
(October 10, 2018 at 6:33 pm)Rhondazvous Wrote: If everything that happens is god's will, then the only measure of right or wrong is success or failure. If it wasn't god's will for me to punch you in the face, then it wouldn't have happened. If I don't punch you in the face it's not because I'm a good person who doesn't do things like that, but because god doesn't want you to be punched in the face today by me.
Appealing to god's will allows people to sleep at night. It wipes the slate of history clean.
This is why empathy is a better foundation for moral behavior, because you have to get rid of the idea of god's will to even recognize that some things are good and some things are evil.
It's not true that God's will is always done. God wants people to do the right thing, but He gives them free will not to.
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RE: How Can We Have Moral Direction If God Controls Everything?
August 21, 2021 at 8:33 pm
Quote:It's not true that God's will is always done. God wants people to do the right thing, but He gives them free will not to.
Then he's a shit god
"Change was inevitable"
Nemo sicut deus debet esse!
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RE: How Can We Have Moral Direction If God Controls Everything?
August 21, 2021 at 9:18 pm
God doesn't control everything. He gave humans free will, and so, humans are free to choose what to make of their lives. Of course, genetics, family wealth, talent, and wisdom, all play a vital role in the spiritual class of a human being. You don't get to choose your circumstances, but you do choose how to respond to them.
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RE: How Can We Have Moral Direction If God Controls Everything?
August 21, 2021 at 9:22 pm
(This post was last modified: August 21, 2021 at 9:23 pm by Foxaèr.)
Life operates as though no deity exists. If it weren't for theists constantly spouting god is real, it is doubtful we would have the religious issues with which we have to deal today.
"Never trust a fox. Looks like a dog, behaves like a cat."
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RE: How Can We Have Moral Direction If God Controls Everything?
August 21, 2021 at 9:30 pm
(August 21, 2021 at 9:22 pm)Foxaire Wrote: Life operates as though no deity exists. If it weren't for theists constantly spouting god is real, it is doubtful we would have the religious issues with which we have to deal today. Can you at least admit those "religious issues" make life more interesting?
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RE: How Can We Have Moral Direction If God Controls Everything?
August 21, 2021 at 9:35 pm
(August 21, 2021 at 9:22 pm)Foxaire Wrote: Life operates as though no deity exists. If it weren't for theists constantly spouting god is real, it is doubtful we would have the religious issues with which we have to deal today.
We've seen what happens when societies attempt to remove God. USSR, North Korea, Cuba, China
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RE: How Can We Have Moral Direction If God Controls Everything?
August 21, 2021 at 9:37 pm
(This post was last modified: August 21, 2021 at 9:39 pm by The Architect Of Fate.)
Quote:We've seen what happens when societies attempt to remove God. USSR, North Korea, Cuba, China
Blaming the irreligious nature of the above for the nature of those countries is ridiculous.
"Change was inevitable"
Nemo sicut deus debet esse!
“No matter what men think, abortion is a fact of life. Women have always had them; they always have and they always will. Are they going to have good ones or bad ones? Will the good ones be reserved for the rich, while the poor women go to quacks?”
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RE: How Can We Have Moral Direction If God Controls Everything?
August 21, 2021 at 9:44 pm
(August 21, 2021 at 9:35 pm)Mashmont Wrote: (August 21, 2021 at 9:22 pm)Foxaire Wrote: Life operates as though no deity exists. If it weren't for theists constantly spouting god is real, it is doubtful we would have the religious issues with which we have to deal today.
We've seen what happens when societies attempt to remove God. USSR, North Korea, Cuba, China
America, the rest of the western world, nearly everybody else...
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RE: How Can We Have Moral Direction If God Controls Everything?
August 21, 2021 at 9:58 pm
(October 10, 2018 at 7:49 pm)Rhondazvous Wrote: (October 10, 2018 at 7:24 pm)no one Wrote: Yeah, it's remarkable just how much the almighty views coincide with yours.
Poor almighty, can't speak to us in an audible voice that we can clearly distinguish from our own thoughts and feelings and desires. This is spiritual forgery, forging god's name onto our own agenda or the agenda of a church or denomination. It has the moral fiber of anarchy.
Interesting how you think God should conform to feeble man's ideas of how things should be done.
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