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Convert me if you can
RE: Convert me if you can
(April 21, 2011 at 11:09 pm)ruhollah Wrote: 1. Remember that Jesus was living at a time when the Roman were the rulers of Europe. These Romans rulers did what rulers do... they manipulate and rewrite history. Jesus introduced a monotheistic religion for the general public and issued the bible. Supposed "historical documents" is relative to what? Obviously the roman powers at the time will do anything to kill off the christian religion. This is why its so hard to find accurate historical accounts of Jesus.

2. It wasn't some guy spreading his own ideas.... it was the continuation of spreading a religion based on monotheistic principles. This religion believes that the monotheistic message has been spread to every culture/nation on the planet. Majority of these cultures/nations now follow religions that in its core follow a monotheistic principle.

(December 28, 2010 at 4:20 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: Let's pretend that I've decided I need religion in my life. I've decided to choose between Christianity and Islam. The Christians have made their sales pitch to me. Now those Muslim posters on this board can make yours. What evidence or arguments does Islam have to support it?

1. What seems to set Islam apart from Christianity is the question of what Jesus was (prophet or divine intercessor). The Christians have made their case to me which includes:

* Supposed "eye witness accounts"
* Supposed "historical documents"
* A church established by the apostles and disciples that knew Jesus or lived in his lifetime.

2. What Islam seems to have is:

* Some guy who came along several hundred years later, who lived in a different country, who claims that he knows what Jesus really said and taught better than the people he heard about Jesus from, the very people who he claims got it all wrong.

Special pleading taken to a whole new level.

Now I'm not endorsing Christianity by a long shot here. I've torn apart all the supposed "evidence" for Christianity but at least they give me a case to tear apart. I can at least understand how the unwary or uninformed might get taken in by the slick packaging. Islam seems to have no substance whatsoever except for "some guy says 'nuh-uh'"

What would be your sales pitch to convince me that Muhammad knew Jesus better than the Christians?

:BS:
"The Universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements: energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest." G'Kar-B5
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RE: Convert me if you can
(April 21, 2011 at 11:09 pm)ruhollah Wrote: 1. Remember that Jesus was living at a time when the Roman were the rulers of Europe. These Romans rulers did what rulers do... they manipulate and rewrite history. Jesus introduced a monotheistic religion for the general public and issued the bible. Supposed "historical documents" is relative to what? Obviously the roman powers at the time will do anything to kill off the christian religion. This is why its so hard to find accurate historical accounts of Jesus.

Agreed that we have nothing to go on as far as what the real story about Jesus might be, that all the "eye witness accounts" and "historical documents" amounts to one religion's mythology.

Where I think we disagree is that you seem to think it's OK to fill in the blanks with your own religion. This is argument from ignorance.

Quote:2. It wasn't some guy spreading his own ideas.... it was the continuation of spreading a religion based on monotheistic principles. This religion believes that the monotheistic message has been spread to every culture/nation on the planet. Majority of these cultures/nations now follow religions that in its core follow a monotheistic principle.

Monotheism =/= necessarily Islam

Monotheism includes many subsets, Islam being only one of them.
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
...      -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
...       -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
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RE: Convert me if you can
Mr Napolean...666!!!!!

then explain to me where did you acquire your knowledge about islam?

All those hate verses about pigs/monkeys and killing non muslims ive proven em wrong hundreds of times over....show me a verse you dnt agree with and why in the quraan and ill explain it to you...the proper way.

Anyway why must humans ask for forgiveness?....

Humans are made with 100% freedom, we have freedom to think, freedom to act how we want.

The intelligence humans were blessed with, comes with a bad side, the bad side is jealousy. The freedom to think and innovate also brings freedom to hate and be jealous. If we didnt have this freedom, we couldnt have the intellgence and innovations to build the shit we build.

The drive to be better than the other guy (the competitive edge the capitalists like to boast about), brings innovation and jealosy, we cant have one and not the other. Because of this total freedom we are sucseptible to do what we're not supposed to do, the curiosity is what makes us sin.

God knows we were created with this fundamental flaw, but he had to create us that to give us the intellignece we possess. Thats why he has given us the option to seek forgveiness.

In islam our souls are made of 6 diffrent parts (cant remember exactly it was between 4-6), each part represents various human characteristics, animals souls have fewer parts, hence lesser intelligence, ie some animals dont have concept of humour, some do, some dont have concepts of guilt about killing etc....which is they will NOT be judged for what they do, and we will.

We have the ability to ask for forgiveness, they dont, thats why we are expected to ask for forgiveness because we WILL sin.

The quraan refers many terms to 'thats what seperates man from the beasts...'

A homosexual dog will not be judged, unlike humans he doesnt have the ability to think, 'if i fuk him/her in the ass, then his/her faeces will be the lube, full of bacteria and disease' - we do have the ability to think that, and the knowledge, aids and STD's are more common in homosexuals because of the disgusting acts they perform - thats why its forbidden, having male friends isnt forbidden for men, putting your penis inside his bumhole is.

TUT TUT Napolean666 you actually did mention the pigs and apes....pathetic.

Quote:have you even read your own book? it's the most vile and hate filled sribblings ever created. it refers to christians as pigs and jews as monkeys


Really napolean, whoever quoted you that verse did you not have the intelligence to read it for youself in a proper translation...??? you beleive it blindly without checking it? This is what i mean about poeple being educated by the media, by what you read on the internet, without checking it for youself...

let me quote you something.....

Quote:“And well you knew those among you who transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath. We said to them ‘Be ye apes, despised and rejected.’” (2:65)

Now your fellow hate monga bum chums would say the quraan says 'jews and christians., be ye apes and pigs', ive seen famous people, documentaries, ive just read loadsa articles again about this apes and pigs fiasco. theres another similar verse somewhere....

read the bloody verse, even better read the whole story, it talks about the 'jews', who disobeyed moses, on the day of the sabbath, its cursing those poeple who disprespected the JEWISH RELIGION, its not cursing jews and christians, but the poeple who insult their religions....who disrespected the sabbath.

and by the way, IF you ever did read a proper non hate monga translation, in the quraan, the people of the book are jews, christians and muslims, so if theres a warning about the people of the book, this refers to ALL abrahamic religions, and not just jews/christians, and the same applies to beleivers, when talked about in a good context...ie 'believers will goto heaven', this means jews and christians also.

Quote:And there are, certainly, among the PEOPLE OF THE BOOK, those who believe in God, in the revelation sent to them, bowing in humility to God. They will not sell the Signs of God for a miserable gain! For them is a reward with their Lord, and God is swift in account.
(Chapter #3, Verse #199)


Quote:9:4. (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for God loves the righteous.

Quote:9:6. If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of God. and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.

Quote:9:5. But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

Quote:9:7. How can there be a league, before Allah and His Messenger, with the Pagans, except those with whom ye made a treaty near the sacred Mosque? As long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them: for God doth love the righteous.

Chaptor, 9, the infamous hate chaptor...read it again, slowly, and not from someone who wished death to muslims.....

clearly says to muslims to honour any treaties you have with pagans (not jews or christians - PAGANS), also it says about people who honour their agreements as rightous, this includes the pagans.

Bare in mind this verse was revealed after a muslim caravan of muslims wives and children (going to pilgrimage) was attacked and women and children were killed, the quraan then clearly says IF THEY REPENT, let them go as god is most forgiving....therefore we should also be forgiving.

now when was anyone in the civilsed western world pardonned because he felt guilt for killing someone?

And your trying to tell me you werent educated on the internet? did you read and discover those verses in the quraan yourself, when you read what the anti islamists put out these days tis almost funny...but its not since the message they send is to promote murder and war - thats not a joke, ask the british soldiers.....if they enjoyed that war, about 60% of them dont agree with the war;

Ive got a friend who is a white non muslim british soldier, he killed muslims in iraq, but he was able to sit with a group of muslims and chill out with us, i had to start avoiding his calls cus he was always coming round....in your head...that is a life/death situtation, but you dont know about reality, you know about hollywood.

Who in the west could have pictured, a british soldier, in sparkbrook (terrorist land in UK), chilling out with 5 kashmiris, an iraqi, and 3 afghans with big beards?...talking about range rovers and sean connery in the Rock....?!?!

Like i says , there NO hate verses in the quraan, refers many many times and talks good about ALL POEPLE OF THE BOOK, jews and chrisitians, and all poeple who beleive in a single creator.

and no, you dont have to learn arabic to read the quraan, just read and AUTHORISED english translation, and not a translation written by ali sina the saint and saviour of mankind.

and jesus NEVER claimed to be the son of god, i mentioned before about proper early christian books, and the true christians that live in palestine right now, those early texts talk about jesus but dont mentionh son of god, but call him a prophet, dnt mention no trinities.

its a well known fact, what you call the bible today was written by the romans, mixed with spices. They collected and burned ALL original bibles because they wanted to make christianity theirs...and not from the jews....it w as a sin punishable by death to own an original aromaic bible.

and napolean, who the fuck you think you're talking to? like a dog, you ever talk to me like face to face, on the streets, id smash your teeth and your face without thinking twice, have some respcet, i didnt insult or swear at nobody here and ive been bombarded with curses..wtf?!?!?! can you refrain from saying fuck for more than 1 paragraph?

Dont think im a softy softy muslim like everyone else, i aint muslim, i just know about islam and the manipulation tactics poeple use to brainwash dicks like you who cant think for themselves.

If you didnt know the romans re-wrote the bible then obviously you dnt know fuk all, well known fact and your asking me for evidence, thats liem asking for evidence eggs are real....

and evolution isnt proven, its proven in your head.

2million species on earth, 99.9% have been extinnct in 3billion years, that means new species every 10 years, thats what science and math tells us, show me example of a positive genetic mutation in the last 100 years?

Einstein was the greatest bad boy scientists of our time, and my personal hero, and he beleived in god, cus he understood and studied science, and knew it was not all chance and randomness, he appreciated the elegant design of our universe?

wtf do you know compared to einstein, you tryna say your smarter than him?

you cant even look up and read for yourself something which someone you dnt even know quoted you....and you repeat it like a parrot....pigs and apes you having a fcukin laugh?

yo....07534970004....

stoney lane, balsall heath, birmingham, england, come to my face and talk to me like that. call me.

ask anyone there for cho, or the garage, they will guide you to me.

i wanna hear you say that shit to my face prik.



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RE: Convert me if you can
(May 11, 2011 at 6:58 am)alemcodon Wrote: (*Lengthy long-winded screed filled with homophobic bigotry, ignorance of science and threats of violence*)

So, do you have any evidence for me to consider? This thread is about a challenge for Muslims to make their case for the truth of their religion. Or is threatening me with violence your approach?
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
...      -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
...       -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
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RE: Convert me if you can
Quote:and napolean, who the fuck you think you're talking to? like a dog, you ever talk to me like face to face, on the streets, id smash your teeth and your face without thinking twice, have some respcet, i didnt insult or swear at nobody here and ive been bombarded with curses..wtf?!?!?! can you refrain from saying fuck for more than 1 paragraph?

Wow, is this the peaceful side of islam?

Threats of physical harm? Really?
I may have swore, called you a fucking imbecile etc but i never threatened to bring harm to you. What's the matter? don't like it when someone calls you out for being the moronic crazy motherfucker you are?

You are one sad fucking man, seriously, acting like a tough guy on a forum? Really? Is this how LOW your life gets?


And that entire post? LOL. Nice rant man, congrats. You've done wonders which i never could to show the rest of the people on here what a dumb chump you really fucking are.
Beside the homophobic shit you were talking and you telling me to 'read a propper translation' all i see is the ramblings of some arrogant nutjob who is clearly venting his anger in frustration because he got called a few nasty words. AWWW BABY GUNNA CRY?


I was going to respond to your points in a rational manner, but seen as you've threatened to, what was it "smash my teeth and my face", i think you've just lost that priveledge.

Oh yeah...
Quote:yo....07534970004....

stoney lane, balsall heath, birmingham, england, come to my face and talk to me like that. call me.

ask anyone there for cho, or the garage, they will guide you to me.

i wanna hear you say that shit to my face prik.

HAHAHAHA, man i can't take you seriously, look at ya, getting all worked up! BLESS!
LMFAO get real, stop acting the hard man.

Enjoy the rest of your sorry existance, i'll not be responding to any of your shitty homophobic, threatening rants any longer.
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RE: Convert me if you can
Mr DeistPaladin

the 'comments' were not aimed at you...i dont have a problem with anything you said....

they were aimed at napolean...because of his complete and utter disrespect...

i came here without insulting anyone, only talking sense and logic,, any scientific facts are quoted are well known in the scientific community, NOT the islamic community.

When poeple have no response they curse.....people like napolean who have complete disregard for anyone other than themselves.

I didnt wanna beleive athiests have no morals but people like napolean prove me wrong, at first i snuffed the coments made by some christians here about athiests have no heart and morals, but guess wot, their right...

Its not a threat of physical harm, its a challenge, talk to me to my face, how you talk to me here napolean, if you got the balls, i aint talking big on forums, i dont talk like this on forums, but your insults are below human reasoning, hence if you wanna act like an animal, i will treat you like an animal.

I werent the one talking big on forums, it was you, i just challenged you to say it to my face, you have my address and number, go for it....

Napolean666's comments...

Now go read my comments before you posted that and was there any sign of insult...?? especially on that sorta level and nothing was personal...

Napoelan666...you just a pussyhole probably working in a macdonalds, spotty greasy little teenager...i read so many comments like this everyday but when im wandering the streets, i dont hear anything, thats what angers me, you guys only express your true feelings behind your computer screens, where you have security.

Tell me when you buy food and mr chinese man (who is probably a bhuddist) forgets to put ketchup on your fries, do you responde to him the say way, when hes physically infront of you?

would you call him a fucktard?- no.. because you are a pussyhole.

When poeple have no god, they have to concept of right or wrong, we are all just random chemical reactions, and even if and when you die, your stilll a chemical reaction, hence you have no regards for human life, emotions or feelings.

Theres only one athiest i've heard/read about that has morals, his name was robin cook, and he resigned as british foriegn minister because he didnt want any part of war.

your just another insignificant buttock chinned imbecile.
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RE: Convert me if you can
Any my science isnt ignorance....

professor stephen hawkings calculations.....

expansion speed of universe afer big bang had a leverage of 0.1 to the power of 19 for matter to be able to clump together and form stars.

that means 0.0000000000000000001%.

Thats mean out of 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 big bangs, one of them would produce stars. Thats 1 million trillion big bangs required.

Then if you ADD the probability of a star on the outer edge of a galaxy capable of supporting life (for stability and relative peacefullness),
then add the probability that has it has a solid rocky planet at a distance capable of holding liquid water...(since the norm in the universe is large gaseous planets nearer to the star orbitting rapidly)
then add the probability it has the ability to have water in solid liquid and gaseous forms
then add the probability it has nearly every naturally occuring element in our universe
then add the probability it has a moon which is relatively massive
then add the probability the moon has enough magnetic force to hole stable the north and south poles
then add the probability the moon has the right distance to hold stable the north and south poles
then add the probability the gravitational force of the planet was a perfect amount to hold only non poisenous gasses in the atmosphere and protective gasses in the higher levels...
and then the probability of life forming...
then add the probability a single bacteriam cell would eventually transform into skyscraper builing beings with super intelligence...

and theres a million more probabilities you could add...

this is not fantasy science, this is not islamic or christian science, this is the science and maths of the poeple you follow, this is maths..you cant disprove mathmatical equations...

but im sure you guys know more than einstein and hawkings (who dedicated their entire existence in doing these calculations) whereas youve just read 'science disproves god' and repeat it....without any real science in your comments or logic. A few monkey skulls and we evolved.

Beleiving in god isnt about 'faith', faith is a concept made up by you.

beleiving what you do is faith, you must have MASSIVE faith in the mathematics of probabilities in your favour to support your existence, way more than the faith required to believe in a god.

If you were to calculate those probabilities, the number would be so small, the 0's wouldnt fit on these pages.



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RE: Convert me if you can
[mod hat]
Deist Paladin asked to be converted. No one else. Everyone else who's not talking to DP cut the ad hominem/ prosthelytizing out or I'll shut down the thread. I don't feel the OP is in the spirit of the rules as it, by nature, encourages prosthelytizing anyways. This is not the first warning so alemcodom and napolean, take a break and chill. Come back after you can cool down, adress the OP and stay on topic or fight your way out of the gauntlet
[/mod hat]
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post

always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
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RE: Convert me if you can
(May 12, 2011 at 8:34 am)tackattack Wrote: [mod hat]
Deist Paladin asked to be converted. No one else. Everyone else who's not talking to DP cut the ad hominem/ prosthelytizing out or I'll shut down the thread. I don't feel the OP is in the spirit of the rules as it, by nature, encourages prosthelytizing anyways. This is not the first warning so alemcodom and napolean, take a break and chill. Come back after you can cool down, adress the OP and stay on topic or fight your way out of the gauntlet
[/mod hat]

C'mon tackattack, isn't there a line between insults and threats? Why is this barbarian still allowed to post?
And when have I ever been warned before? I admit i was 'f'ing and blinding a little too much, i accept that and apoligise for it, but when someone is blatently saying "i'll smash your face and teeth in" why is no one paying a blind bit of notice?
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RE: Convert me if you can
(May 12, 2011 at 6:02 am)alemcodon Wrote: Mr DeistPaladin

the 'comments' were not aimed at you...i dont have a problem with anything you said....

You threaten one freethinker with violence, you threaten us all.

For that matter, you threaten anyone with violence over their use of free speech, you threaten us all.
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
...      -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
...       -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
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