Is atheism a belief?

[ignoramus]

condescension.

(but I knew what you meant!)

[Amarok]

Wow, such anger for a position claiming to be a non belief. 

Or maybe it's you who keeps seeing anger that's not their as nothing in Grands response seems angry so seem remarkably hung up on other seeing anger in people .

I remind everyone that I actually accepted this a long time ago now and moved on but there is still discussion.

And ?

To directly answer ur rather hostile question. 

There you go again nothing in his comment seems hostile 

I don't understand how your definition is different to the definition of other atheists

Because i imagine it isn't 

And so I don't understand why some get all emotional when I call it a belief, claim or something when the definition is unclear within its own community.

Simple it not unclear and being told it is frustrating 

Im finding this to be a major issue with atheism thayt has in fact been expressed by many. There is certainly a lot of discussion on these various definitions.
So the emotional use of foul language must be down to being asked this a lot. Not my fault.

This false position, view, non belief, ideology, doctrine or whatever term u wish to use, is explained very well in the following articles
https://www.bethinking.org/atheism/the-s...an-sceptic
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online...-of-belief

Two biased fundie websites with ironically hostile opinions of atheists not a great source 

This is the definition of a double negative.
"A double negative is a grammatical construction occurring when two forms of negation are used in the same sentence"

Having a fundie website reaffrim your assertion does you little good 

Twisting this definition needs to be done to fit the atheist agenda

Nope and even asserting an "agenda " says a great deal about you .

U are so afraid of having ur world view shaken up u cannot even answer some simple questions.

Or he doesn't care about your questions   

I'll answer them then.

What is the purpose of argument for people here?         To learn
Are u looking to gain knowledge?                                 Yes
Are you looking to find common ground?                       Yes
Are you looking to understand different perspectives?     Yes
Are you looking to impose ur ideology?                         No
Are you looking to win the argument?                           No

Good for you and why did anyone else need to do this ? and this was suppose unravel grands "supposed " "world view"

Hope that makes u guys feel better... As feelings seem to overwrite facts here

I honestly don't think he cares and need i point out all the above could reinforce the perceptions that it's you who is angry

[Amarok]

How many "abigfootist" forums have you joined?

None because they don't exist . But even if they did that would make it a belief

---

Seriously guys ur arguing among urselves. Just look at how many different theories, opinions and definitions everyone has presented.
Yas cant agree on it so im just going on to a new topic while u guys try decide for urselves.
I will just use the simple dictionary definitions. 
People trying to force me to be atheist because i only deal in knowledge... Goodness gracious fallacious.
And to think how many blind people are being pushed into atheism like this... Its deceiving to suggest u can't be agnostic without some kind of belief based label attached to it... Its a GIGANTIC fallacy and the more people try to define my position as atheist the more suspicious this all looks.

Just remember Im trying to have a discussion with 30 guys here. Some are just trolls, some posts are not worth responding to, others are fallacious. U may be sure of your definition and what u say but theres other opinions that differ from ur personal one.

Some people are already getting hostile over what? Nothing? LoL. I got some quotes mixed up and someone ran crying to the principal. 
I got a warning. A warning I got for accidentally saying he said this instead of she said this. Tssss.

Im being branded a theist without any evidence. Guilty without trial. And in the face of all this barbaric behavior and abuse I still remain civilized.
Im basically giving u guys a chance to explain yourselves to someone who only deals in knowledge.
After a handful of topics I will be able to know what the deal is here.

After round one with the anger  . 
The churches  . 
The hostile accusations  .
The varying opinions  . 
The confusion within the ranks  .
The dismissals  .
The personal attacks  .
The fallacious arguments  .

Its not a positive start for atheism here.

Dear god you are a mess of over sensitivity, entitlement ,  and exaggerated bravado and wonder why people react poorly to you .

[GrandizerII]

Wow, such anger for a position claiming to be a non belief.

This is nothing compared to the anger and hostility I'm seeing from you.

I remind everyone that I actually accepted this a long time ago now and moved on but there is still discussion.

Bullshit. You didn't accept anything, else you wouldn't continue to contest the definition to this point.

And now i know why... Im not the first to ask this.

No, that's not why. It's only theists (and yourself) that have been arguing about such a simple definition of the term. Every atheist who has participated here seems to agree with the basic definition.

To directly answer ur rather hostile question.

Again, nothing compared to the hostility you've shown.

I don't understand how your definition is different to the definition of other atheists

It's not really that different. It's rephrased a little in order to account for "naturalistic" and metaphorical theism as well. But the core definition still remains simple: atheism is "not theism". This means if you don't believe in God (and you supposedly don't), then by the simple definition of the term "atheist", you are an atheist.

And so I don't understand why some get all emotional when I call it a belief, claim or something when the definition is unclear within its own community.

Well, I don't understand why you're getting all emotional about this when we keep trying to make it clear to you that atheism is simply a lack of belief in god(s). And this definition, AFAIK, is agreed upon by all the atheists here.

Im finding this to be a major issue with atheism thayt has in fact been expressed by many. There is certainly a lot of discussion on these various definitions.

Point me to one atheist who has participated in this thread that has argued against this basic definition of atheism.

So the emotional use of foul language must be down to being asked this a lot. Not my fault.

Except it has everything to do with your attitude here. Perhaps if you stopped acting like a dick, some of us would treat you with more respect. Keep in mind I was rather respectful to you at the start, but your continual smugness and projections of anger and hostility have made me not want to give you much respect.

This false position, view, non belief, ideology, doctrine or whatever term u wish to use, is explained very well in the following articles
https://www.bethinking.org/atheism/the-s...an-sceptic
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online...-of-belief

Why is it you can't accept the basic definition of atheism but instead have to go to theistic sites to get the definition(s) you want? Are you really here to listen to what we have to say? Because your use of phrases like "false position" shows you're clearly not here to have a civil and fair discussion about these matters.

This is the definition of a double negative.
"A double negative is a grammatical construction occurring when two forms of negation are used in the same sentence"
Twisting this definition needs to be done to fit the atheist agenda

No twisting intended. Even if I grant that two forms of negation in the same sentence make for a double negative, it does not necessarily mean that these negations cancel each other. As someone else pointed out earlier, there's "double negative" in the grammatical sense ... and then there's "double negative" in the mathematical/logical sense. You're mixing up both senses of the phrase here, and thinking that because two minuses next to each other make a plus, that this must also unconditionally apply in grammar as well. That's a mistake that you've made here, and if you're really here to learn, you should avoid making that mistake again.

U are so afraid of having ur world view shaken up u cannot even answer some simple questions.

Yeah, I'm so scared, man. You got me.

I'll answer them then.

What is the purpose of argument for people here?         To learn
Are u looking to gain knowledge?                                 Yes
Are you looking to find common ground?                       Yes
Are you looking to understand different perspectives?     Yes
Are you looking to impose ur ideology?                         No
Are you looking to win the argument?                           No

I don't believe you (at this point). Why not? Because actions speak louder than words.

Hope that makes u guys feel better... As feelings seem to overwrite facts here

This attitude is why you won't get along with anyone here.

[Mister Agenda]

Please describe the belief all atheists have in common.
Please sum up the atheist *ideology* all atheists have in common.
What doctrine do all atheists have in common?
What theory do all atheists have in common?
What system do all atheists in common?

Let me rephrase your questions, and maybe you'll see how they fail...

Please describe the belief all theists have in common.
Please sum up the theist *ideology* all theists have in common.
What doctrine do all theists have in common?
What theory do all theists have in common?
What system do all theists in common?

---

Atheism is a belief like baldness is a hair color.

Look up the definition of 'ism'...

Good insight, Huggy. Theism is also not a belief system. It is the opinion that some sort of divine being actually exists outside of our imaginations. An atheist is someone who does not share that opinion.

As for the definition of 'ism', the definition that applies in this case is 'a condition or state of being'. Albinism is the state of lacking melanin, atheism is the state of lacking theism.

---

"We don't believe there are any gods" but we also "don't believe there are no Gods". Then which God do u believe in? Very confused are these atheists. The determination to redefine a simple definition with false grammar is amazing. What is the motivation...

Do you think that if I told you that I don't believe there is an even number of pennies in my penny jar, I must believe that there is an odd number of pennies in my penny jar?

A belief is a proposition held to be true. I don't know whether there is an even or odd number of pennies in my jar, so I don't hold either to be true. I don't believe there is an even number, and I also don't believe that there is an odd number. I lack a belief about the evenness or oddness of the number of pennies in my jar.

I also lack a belief that a God or gods exist and I lack a belief that a God or gods don't exist. I don't know whether any exist (though certain proposed deities I can rule out for incoherence or contrary evidence) and I don't know that no deity at all exists. I am an agnostic atheist: I don't believe because I don't know.

I would not argue that an agnostic can't be a theist: they could believe in a deity while acknowledging that they have not way of knowing that their belief is true.

[Huggy Bear]

Let me rephrase your questions, and maybe you'll see how they fail...

Please describe the belief all theists have in common.
Please sum up the theist *ideology* all theists have in common.
What doctrine do all theists have in common?
What theory do all theists have in common?
What system do all theists in common?

---

Look up the definition of 'ism'...

Good insight, Huggy. Theism is also not a belief system. It is the opinion that some sort of divine being actually exists outside of our imaginations. An atheist is someone who does not share that opinion.

As for the definition of 'ism', the definition that applies in this case is 'a condition or state of being'. Albinism is the state of lacking melanin, atheism is the state of lacking theism.

Yes, albinism IS a condition, it has nothing to do with what you believe. one can HAVE 'albinism' but a person doesn't HAVE 'athiesm', that should tell you right there that the the two aren't the same.

We don't apply that same criteria to lack of belief in anything else. for instance, whats the state for non-belief in Bigfoot?

There are Ideologies focused on there being zero gods, THAT IS athe-ism.

Atheist and atheism have different meanings, same with theist and theism. One can believe a God exists without actually engaging in religious practices.

[T0 Th3 M4X]

That's the thing these days. You get a billion different claims and definitions to what something is. Then it goes to:

My theism is better than your theism
My atheism is better than your atheism
My theism is better than your atheism
My atheism is better than your theism

So which theism or atheism is right? And the "logical" answer that ALL normal people will give is "my version." Once you get past that, then it turns into how the universe came into existence. Was it the creation from the divine or did it pop into existence on its own. Were organisms created? Were organisms the result of the planet having a bowel movement that mutated?

You can go round-n-round indefinitely, but before you can come to a conclusion, you'll have a thousand more explanations to contend with including hybrids. Theism and atheism mixed together, because some people think they've come up with a better explanation. No wonder people get confused in the mix. It's the equivalent of perpetually banging a frying pan against your head.

[The Grand Nudger]

We don't apply that same criteria to lack of belief in anything else. for instance, whats the state for non-belief in Bigfoot?

It could be abigfootism...but you're right, we don't have to come up with a term for any other state in which a person doesn't believe in silly shit - that there's an explicit term for not believing in silly god shit is a bit of a headscratcher until you remember just how many people do believe in silly god shit, and the ramifications of that disparity compared to..say bigfootism and abigfootism. 

There are Ideologies focused on there being zero gods, THAT IS athe-ism.

Atheism isn't an ideology, lol.  

Atheist and atheism have different meanings, same with theist and theism. One can believe a God exists without actually engaging in religious practices.

Gee, you mean that not all theists are (insert a specific religion here)?  Shocker.

Will you ever be done punching yourself in the dick on this one?

---

As a summary on this -entire- ridiculous thread.


There are gnostic atheists in the world, all the hemming and hawing to dump everyone into that bucket is pointless on two counts.  Firstly, because most atheists just don't fit(I wish they did...lol).  Secondly..because you could always have that discussion with atheists that do...no need to punch yourselves in the dick over and over again.

There are...also, gnostic atheists who do have a particular ideology, and just like the above....pointless on the same two counts.

So, what's up?  Is there Some Thing™ that you god bothering lot desperately have to say?  Some discussion you want to have...with a person who actually does fit your infantile attempts at narrow miscategorization?  No need for all these pages of nonsense, you've got a gnostic atheist on the line..that has an explicitly anti-theistic ideology.  Fire away.

Is atheism a belief? No.
Do I have beliefs about gods? Yes.
Is atheism an ideology? No.
Do I hold to a particular ideology? Yes.

What's next?

[unfogged]

There are Ideologies focused on there being zero gods, THAT IS athe-ism.

No, but when people don't have theism they need to find something else around which to build a worldview. Not believing in a god is not a workable foundation so they seek out other things (e.g. secular humanism). It isn't all that surprising that many atheists find common ground in other things and while that might be mistaken for atheism being an ideology it falls apart when you look deeper. There is no "athe-ism", there are just other worldviews when you start from "a-theism".

[The Grand Nudger]

The really amusing thing...is that nothing prevents a theist from being a humanist, themselves.  Modern theism has been deeply influenced and changed by secular humanism - to every crackpot shaman's dismay.