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(January 9, 2019 at 8:45 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Do you know how to melt and cast metal into an engine, cast a car body, wire and put an engine in from scratch? No? But I am pretty sure you figured out cars don't run on pixie dust. And I also bet you know how to drive a car knowing driving it doesn't require a unicorn to drive it.
Scientific method is a tool, you don't have to know how to build a house to know what a hammer(tool) is.
Now please don't think your religion is the only religion with followers who pull your argument.
Scientific method does not point to the bible, nor Koran, nor Buddah, Nor Jewish OT, or Hindu Vedas. It is a neutral tool and does not require faith to understand what the tool is.
1. Collect data.
2. Plug into formula(model) with control groups.
3. Test and falsify, repeat with a good sample rate.
4. Formulate conclusions.
5. Hand those conclusions over to independent peers to test to see if they come to the same conclusions.
6. If they come to the same conclusions, you may be on to something.
7. If they don't, restart, or scrap if it is junk.
^^^^^^^^ I did wright this in English. Can't be that hard to understand.
I also have never played pro football, but I understand the down system, player positions, and penalty and scoring rules.
Not sure what this has to do with my question, but okay.
There's no dispute that the scientific method can be used to ascertain bits of knowledge about things.
Care to answer my question now? If not, good enough,
Nope, not playing your game. You want to go "AH AH, you don't know anything, so my sky wizard is real."
I was born at night, just not last night. There are 7 billion humans living on this planet, with 10s of thousands of different religions and sub sects of each. Our species is far older than any written religion, or nation. Our planet is 4 billion years old. Our universe is 13.8 billion years old. There is no sky wizard doing any of this, not yours, not any. Our species will go extinct eventually just like 99% of prior life that existed, and eventually our planet and sun will die, and there will be no record of human's existence or their mythologies, which are really nothing more than projections of their own desires.
We have as a species lived of our current form, of 200,000 years most of that in ignorance, and only around 10,000 years ago did we start writing things down. Now that seems to me a huge waste of time to wait most of that 13.8 billion years, much less 4 billion years, if humans are some special pet for a sky hero to wait most of that time, and even of the 10,000 years most of that in scientific ignorance and still religious tribalism and war. Seems like a pretty shitty way to run a factory if you are all powerful to let your factory workers live like that for so long.
Most humans buy the religions of their parents long before they can formulate adult critical thinking skills. There are on average 50 to 60 million deaths worldwide per year, from everything humans die from. We die in child birth, we die from famine, disease, natural disaster, crime and war. That is an average of half a billion in 10 years and 1 billion deaths every 20 years. Again, seems like a ton of waste to me if God claims he loves us and wants us to be safe and claims he can protect us. What would this alleged sky hero need with 10s of millions, much less billions of friends in a cosmic after party your alleged exists?
And do you really think you are the only apologist of the only religion that tries to debate science? Hate to burst your bubble, but every religion has followers whom, either try to argue their holy writings, or try to attack science, or try to get science to point to their club.
Every religion has follower apologists who love to claim their club is the seat of discovery and morality.
I say our species morality isn't in old mythology or holy writings or holy people. I say our ability to be cruel or compassionate, and our ability to make discoveries are in our genes, in our evolution and there is no divine power doing that, our species is doing that.
It isn't going to kill you to consider we are finite, and no super cognition is involved.
(January 10, 2019 at 3:56 am)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote: Not sure what this has to do with my question, but okay.
There's no dispute that the scientific method can be used to ascertain bits of knowledge about things.
Care to answer my question now? If not, good enough,
Nope, not playing your game. You want to go "AH AH, you don't know anything, so my sky wizard is real."
I was born at night, just not last night. There are 7 billion humans living on this planet, with 10s of thousands of different religions and sub sects of each. Our species is far older than any written religion, or nation. Our planet is 4 billion years old. Our universe is 13.8 billion years old. There is no sky wizard doing any of this, not yours, not any. Our species will go extinct eventually just like 99% of prior life that existed, and eventually our planet and sun will die, and there will be no record of human's existence or their mythologies, which are really nothing more than projections of their own desires.
We have as a species lived of our current form, of 200,000 years most of that in ignorance, and only around 10,000 years ago did we start writing things down. Now that seems to me a huge waste of time to wait most of that 13.8 billion years, much less 4 billion years, if humans are some special pet for a sky hero to wait most of that time, and even of the 10,000 years most of that in scientific ignorance and still religious tribalism and war. Seems like a pretty shitty way to run a factory if you are all powerful to let your factory workers live like that for so long.
Most humans buy the religions of their parents long before they can formulate adult critical thinking skills. There are on average 50 to 60 million deaths worldwide per year, from everything humans die from. We die in child birth, we die from famine, disease, natural disaster, crime and war. That is an average of half a billion in 10 years and 1 billion deaths every 20 years. Again, seems like a ton of waste to me if God claims he loves us and wants us to be safe and claims he can protect us. What would this alleged sky hero need with 10s of millions, much less billions of friends in a cosmic after party your alleged exists?
And do you really think you are the only apologist of the only religion that tries to debate science? Hate to burst your bubble, but every religion has followers whom, either try to argue their holy writings, or try to attack science, or try to get science to point to their club.
Every religion has follower apologists who love to claim their club is the seat of discovery and morality.
I say our species morality isn't in old mythology or holy writings or holy people. I say our ability to be cruel or compassionate, and our ability to make discoveries are in our genes, in our evolution and there is no divine power doing that, our species is doing that.
It isn't going to kill you to consider we are finite, and no super cognition is involved.
You're making assumptions. It wasn't a "gotcha" question.
I don't try to attack science. I have a dual degree in science (social sciences) and almost finished a triple but quite honestly I got sick of school. I didn't go to college right out of high school. Worked for several years, went to college and tried to balance it out with work, joined the military (Army), eventually came back home, then did the school thing again Additionally I've done peer-reviewed work and peer-review. Doesn't make me the best at understanding science, and it doesn't make me the worst. All-in-all, you could be ten times the scientist I am. Maybe you are, and if so, good enough.
As far as the times you mentioned, those are also assumptions. You are making claims that couldn't possibly be known. If you feel they can be known, and even by the scientific method, then I would love to hear it. To even begin to assert these things, it would have to account for many things have yet to be accounted for. But hey, I'm willing to listen.
January 10, 2019 at 8:54 am (This post was last modified: January 10, 2019 at 9:02 am by Brian37.)
(January 10, 2019 at 8:47 am)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote:
(January 10, 2019 at 7:59 am)Brian37 Wrote: Nope, not playing your game. You want to go "AH AH, you don't know anything, so my sky wizard is real."
I was born at night, just not last night. There are 7 billion humans living on this planet, with 10s of thousands of different religions and sub sects of each. Our species is far older than any written religion, or nation. Our planet is 4 billion years old. Our universe is 13.8 billion years old. There is no sky wizard doing any of this, not yours, not any. Our species will go extinct eventually just like 99% of prior life that existed, and eventually our planet and sun will die, and there will be no record of human's existence or their mythologies, which are really nothing more than projections of their own desires.
We have as a species lived of our current form, of 200,000 years most of that in ignorance, and only around 10,000 years ago did we start writing things down. Now that seems to me a huge waste of time to wait most of that 13.8 billion years, much less 4 billion years, if humans are some special pet for a sky hero to wait most of that time, and even of the 10,000 years most of that in scientific ignorance and still religious tribalism and war. Seems like a pretty shitty way to run a factory if you are all powerful to let your factory workers live like that for so long.
Most humans buy the religions of their parents long before they can formulate adult critical thinking skills. There are on average 50 to 60 million deaths worldwide per year, from everything humans die from. We die in child birth, we die from famine, disease, natural disaster, crime and war. That is an average of half a billion in 10 years and 1 billion deaths every 20 years. Again, seems like a ton of waste to me if God claims he loves us and wants us to be safe and claims he can protect us. What would this alleged sky hero need with 10s of millions, much less billions of friends in a cosmic after party your alleged exists?
And do you really think you are the only apologist of the only religion that tries to debate science? Hate to burst your bubble, but every religion has followers whom, either try to argue their holy writings, or try to attack science, or try to get science to point to their club.
Every religion has follower apologists who love to claim their club is the seat of discovery and morality.
I say our species morality isn't in old mythology or holy writings or holy people. I say our ability to be cruel or compassionate, and our ability to make discoveries are in our genes, in our evolution and there is no divine power doing that, our species is doing that.
It isn't going to kill you to consider we are finite, and no super cognition is involved.
You're making assumptions. It wasn't a "gotcha" question.
I don't try to attack science. I have a dual degree in science (social sciences) and almost finished a triple but quite honestly I got sick of school. I didn't go to college right out of high school. Worked for several years, went to college and tried to balance it out with work, joined the military (Army), eventually came back home, then did the school thing again Additionally I've done peer-reviewed work and peer-review. Doesn't make me the best at understanding science, and it doesn't make me the worst. All-in-all, you could be ten times the scientist I am. Maybe you are, and if so, good enough.
As far as the times you mentioned, those are also assumptions. You are making claims that couldn't possibly be known. If you feel they can be known, and even by the scientific method, then I would love to hear it. To even begin to assert these things, it would have to account for many things have yet to be accounted for. But hey, I'm willing to listen.
Said the person who assumes an old book of mythology is relevant in an age of technology that has sent man made objects past Pluto.
You are the one assuming that an unscientific book of mythology is still relevant today.
The earth was not made in 6 days. Donkeys and bushes don't talk. Babies are not born without a second set of DNA whom have super powers, and humans do not survive rigor mortis. Just like you accept that Thor is not the cause of lightening. Just like you accept Poseidon is not the cause of hurricanes.
You do not get to blame me for the bad guesses humans made in antiquity when they didn't know any better. That was then, this is now. It was understandable people made up religion back then when they didn't know any better, but we have far better knowledge now.
I am sorry it bothers you to think that you are finite. It shouldn't bother you, but again, I am not responsible for your falling for wishful thinking. It is possible to live now, enjoy now, and do good now, without assigning it to magic.
I don't care if you do claim to have a degree in science. AGAIN, go back and click on the links of other religions whom also try to get science to point to their clubs and writings. You all have the same problem. Science is a neutral tool. It is not there to point at Jesus, or Buddha, or Yahweh, or Allah or Vishnu.
Science does however, through evolutionary biology, neurology, and psychology, explain why human's false perceptions can lead them to make bad claims.
(January 9, 2019 at 11:09 pm)tackattack Wrote: As we are reasoning beings, Very little of what we actually chose to do is without reason. You may not like my reasons or have another standard, but I can have reason and faith. What I can't have is Faith and Evidence that is seen or complete understanding of, because, by that's how the Bible defines faith. I have evidence for lots of things in my life, I have reasons for almost everything, I have subjective observations and a partially complete understanding that rises above the level of plausible, indications for a God, IMO.
To simplify I'll just reword statements Having faith is an admission that the belief is not provable and Faith is a way of attaining knowledge when materialism alone can't get you there. This seems to be an atheist trigger word, so pardon if this is off topic.
Faith is a way of attaining knowledge? As in make believe?
And lol, atheist trigger words. Keep on trying.
Jesus is like Pinocchio. He's the bastard son of a carpenter. And a liar. And he wishes he was real.
If knowledge is the fact or condition of knowing something with familiarity gained through experience or association or the circumstance or condition of apprehending truth or fact through reasoning (standard definitions from MW) then knowledge is pretty easy to obtain. You don't question whether the sky is blue, or a tree is firm enough to hold you, or that tomorrow is another day. Those things are grounded in the material and natural. They are easy to quantify and measure with other tools we have like materialism and science. Neither knowledge or faith require evidence in their definitions. People however, demand proofs and evidentiary standards to include a view into their own beliefs. That could be difficult to accept for those that don't believe there is a spiritual world.
(January 10, 2019 at 4:16 am)Gae Bolga Wrote:
(January 9, 2019 at 11:09 pm)tackattack Wrote: As we are reasoning beings, Very little of what we actually chose to do is without reason. You may not like my reasons or have another standard, but I can have reason and faith. What I can't have is Faith and Evidence that is seen or complete understanding of, because, by that's how the Bible defines faith. I have evidence for lots of things in my life, I have reasons for almost everything, I have subjective observations and a partially complete understanding that rises above the level of plausible, indications for a God, IMO.
You should share them sometime....be a break from the usual drivel of "magic book said so!" and "because I don't know shit about xy and z!"
Quote:To simplify I'll just reword statements Having faith is an admission that the belief is not provable and Faith is a way of attaining knowledge when materialism alone can't get you there. This seems to be an atheist trigger word, so pardon if this is off topic.
Mostly down to how atrociously the faithful use the term..as you did, in point of fact, above. As far as I can tell..it's been made to mean something like "the good" whereas materialism "the enemy" in believing circles. So I read the statement..I understand where it comes from..but there's no coherent deconstrunction -of- it. Faith never leads us to knowledge, it leads us to expectation. Far too often, it leads us into conflating our expectations with knowledge. I have faith that my wife will be with me forever..I have no such knowledge, and no amount of such a faith will lead to it, materialism isn't even a factor.
Just a quick note, that you may enjoy......"jesus" body was gone. He didn't lift up into the heavens on a ghost chariot leaving his husk...and the (super duper christy) christians still await the day that the dead literally and bodily rise from their graves (as they did in jerusalem that day, even though no one else noticed, lol). The notion that materialism is some "other end" of a coin...and that you need faith to get you where materialism wont take you...well..that's not actually the thrust of magic book. People believed because they saw it materially happen, so the story goes..and the story stands as a *testament to others that it's contents are materially true.
Paul even laments that if these things were not so..then the whole religion is folly. He doesn't seem to have had much time for faith, as you've conceptualized it...when you really dig into it.
The reason that they seem so now (faith/materialism) has more to do with the scholastics writing in some good pre-christian pagan philosophy through the medeival than how people envisioned their world at the big bc/ad changeover. It';s helpful to point out that until very recently..nobody even thought of "souls" as being immaterial in the manner that we use the term. Circles of salt (and a whole host of other fun things) interacted with ghosts..in their minds eye. Yet another one of christianity's self inflicted wounds - losing the vitalism that a fully contextualized spirit brings into the world by positing a second and distinct spirit world..instead. My father in law..to his immense credit, is trying to get himself back to that sort of turn of the clock footing. I don't believe in his silly religion..but it's interesting to watch him make a conscious effort to deprogram and change the way he thinks..so that he can get back to something we might call a genuine faith. It also helped alot with my marriage, specifically in that he raised his daughter in this way - which makes alot of the usual faith/non-faith stresses nonexistent for us.
(January 10, 2019 at 7:48 am)unfogged Wrote:
(January 9, 2019 at 11:09 pm)tackattack Wrote: As we are reasoning beings, Very little of what we actually chose to do is without reason. You may not like my reasons or have another standard, but I can have reason and faith.
You can have reason and faith, but not on the same beliefs.
Quote:What I can't have is Faith and Evidence that is seen or complete understanding of, because, by that's how the Bible defines faith.
Evidence that is not seen is not evidence and I see no reason to think that faith is a good thing no matter where it is defined.
Quote: I have evidence for lots of things in my life, I have reasons for almost everything,
It is odd how so many theists are able to use critical thinking and reason in almost every aspect of their lives and yet throw it out the window when it comes to the god question. That is the one area where ignoring all the inconsistencies and contradictions and actual evidence is treated as valid.
Quote:I have subjective observations and a partially complete understanding that rises above the level of plausible, indications for a God, IMO.
Every "plausible indication" I have ever been presented with boils down to an argument from either ignorance or personal incredulity. Subjective observations and partial understandings are useful to identify possible areas of investigation but they are insufficient to come to a reasoned belief which is why faith has to be used to bridge the gap. Yes, there is much that we do not fully understand and much more that we do not know. That is not a basis for reaching a conclusion.
(January 9, 2019 at 11:09 pm)tackattack Wrote: To simplify I'll just reword statements Having faith is an admission that the belief is not provable
It is more than that. It is an admission that it is not rational to hold the belief.
Quote:and Faith is a way of attaining knowledge when materialism alone can't get you there.
No, faith can't get you to knowledge, only to unsupported, unreasoned beliefs.
Quote: This seems to be an atheist trigger word, so pardon if this is off topic.
Faith is a core problem; believers hold it up as a virtue when it is the antithesis of rational thought.
I never said it was a virtue, it can very well be a hindrance and a crutch at times, I wouldn't claim it to be a problem though. It would be much easier if God just showed up and we had tea together and chatted about the current state of things. By definition it is not without reasoning. It may not be reasonable from your perspective, or provable to you, but that doesn't make it any less real to me or true objectively. Faith requires reasoning. The reasoning could be faulty, but doesn't have to be. Faith doesn't require evidence.
It's not that materialism and faith are opposites, it's that natural and supernatural are mutually exclusive.
As to your earlier point regarding what faith leads to, it does lead to expectation. Faith breeds hope. You and I both have Faith that there will be a tomorrow to wake up to our wives. Justified faith leads to reliance, and reliance to trust, trust to security in your knowledge that tomorrow is another day. That is reasoned knowledge from faith. We can discuss all day long how and why tomorrow will most likely happen in a materialistic evidentiary way. We can even apply neuroscience and sociology to whether it will include our wives. However, we nominally operate on this intuitively not scientifically, which is faith.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
(January 10, 2019 at 9:37 am)Nihilist Virus Wrote:
(January 9, 2019 at 11:09 pm)tackattack Wrote: As we are reasoning beings, Very little of what we actually chose to do is without reason. You may not like my reasons or have another standard, but I can have reason and faith. What I can't have is Faith and Evidence that is seen or complete understanding of, because, by that's how the Bible defines faith. I have evidence for lots of things in my life, I have reasons for almost everything, I have subjective observations and a partially complete understanding that rises above the level of plausible, indications for a God, IMO.
To simplify I'll just reword statements Having faith is an admission that the belief is not provable and Faith is a way of attaining knowledge when materialism alone can't get you there. This seems to be an atheist trigger word, so pardon if this is off topic.
Faith is a way of attaining knowledge? As in make believe?
And lol, atheist trigger words. Keep on trying.
There are plenty of theists throughout history I find to be heros to humanity. Humans who display compassion and empathy for others. Martian Luther King Jr, Ann Frank and Malala would be great examples. But, I do not agree that their actions, that serve as a good example for humanity, are coming from a divine source from above.
Humans do not have to, as you put it "make believe" that good is some super natural outside source. Our behaviors are not a product of the divine world, but have always been in us. It is still up to our species how we interact with each other.
(January 10, 2019 at 9:37 am)Nihilist Virus Wrote: Faith is a way of attaining knowledge? As in make believe?
And lol, atheist trigger words. Keep on trying.
There are plenty of theists throughout history I find to be heros to humanity. Humans who display compassion and empathy for others. Martian Luther King Jr, Ann Frank and Malala would be great examples. But, I do not agree that their actions, that serve as a good example for humanity, are coming from a divine source from above.
Humans do not have to, as you put it "make believe" that good is some super natural outside source. Our behaviors are not a product of the divine world, but have always been in us. It is still up to our species how we interact with each other.
(January 10, 2019 at 11:26 am)Brian37 Wrote: There are plenty of theists throughout history I find to be heros to humanity. Humans who display compassion and empathy for others. Martian Luther King Jr, Ann Frank and Malala would be great examples. But, I do not agree that their actions, that serve as a good example for humanity, are coming from a divine source from above.
Humans do not have to, as you put it "make believe" that good is some super natural outside source. Our behaviors are not a product of the divine world, but have always been in us. It is still up to our species how we interact with each other.
So you are the determining factor?
What the f? Where did I claim I was the center of the universe?
No, what is going on with you, is that you are simply not used to people challenging your claims. Saying "that was then, this is now" is all I am doing. I am sorry someone sold you old mythology, but again, that is your baggage not mine.
How much time have you taken to "determine" that Apollo is not real? How much time have you taken to "determine" that Thor is not real?
There ARE good humans worldwide of every religion. I only dispute where humans think our ability to do good and be good is coming from.
Someone sold you the idea that you needed a super cognition with super powers to manipulate life an the universe. I don't think you need that bad claim. I think humans are doing it, and humans are all we have, if we want to solve the problems of the world, and reduce conflict.
The only difference between you and I is that I reject one more god claim than you do. Understand why you rightfully reject all other god claims, besides the one you hold, then you should quite easily understand why I reject yours as well.
It should not frighten you one bit that this is it, and no super hero is helping humans.
(January 10, 2019 at 9:37 am)Nihilist Virus Wrote: Faith is a way of attaining knowledge? As in make believe?
And lol, atheist trigger words. Keep on trying.
There are plenty of theists throughout history I find to be heros to humanity. Humans who display compassion and empathy for others. Martian Luther King Jr, Ann Frank and Malala would be great examples. But, I do not agree that their actions, that serve as a good example for humanity, are coming from a divine source from above.
Humans do not have to, as you put it "make believe" that good is some super natural outside source. Our behaviors are not a product of the divine world, but have always been in us. It is still up to our species how we interact with each other.
Believing in good and believing in God are different things. There's no reason to believe that God exists. If you make yourself believe it, that's make believe.
Jesus is like Pinocchio. He's the bastard son of a carpenter. And a liar. And he wishes he was real.
(January 10, 2019 at 12:36 pm)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote: So you are the determining factor?
What the f? Where did I claim I was the center of the universe?
No, what is going on with you, is that you are simply not used to people challenging your claims. Saying "that was then, this is now" is all I am doing. I am sorry someone sold you old mythology, but again, that is your baggage not mine.
How much time have you taken to "determine" that Apollo is not real? How much time have you taken to "determine" that Thor is not real?
There ARE good humans worldwide of every religion. I only dispute where humans think our ability to do good and be good is coming from.
Someone sold you the idea that you needed a super cognition with super powers to manipulate life an the universe. I don't think you need that bad claim. I think humans are doing it, and humans are all we have, if we want to solve the problems of the world, and reduce conflict.
The only difference between you and I is that I reject one more god claim than you do. Understand why you rightfully reject all other god claims, besides the one you hold, then you should quite easily understand why I reject yours as well.
It should not frighten you one bit that this is it, and no super hero is helping humans.
You determined all this off a question? Then I guess I rightfully asked - "So you are the determining factor?"
How many things did you determine in your statement -
- Good people worldwide of every religion
- Someone sold me the idea of super cognition to manipulate life and the universe
- I don't need a claim + must be bad.
- Humans are doing it and all we we have to solve problems and reduce conflicts
- Reject one more "god claim" is our only difference.
- I reject all other god claims.
- I should easily understand based on the prior matter you determined.
- It should not frighten me.
- No super hero helping humans.
