On the subject of Hell and Salvation

[possibletarian]

Call it common sense then. If you're going to say "who declares it common sense," well, I'd say "most people."

So people, not god decide what is logical would you agree ?

Because things don't simply exist without a source. To argue otherwise would be insane.

And yet you happily give your man created god an opt out on that.
So i ask again, how do you know the universe came from nothing ?

I mean according to natural laws, obviously I know they are possible through God. Are you being deliberately difficult?

No it's a serious question you are being asked, try answering from evidence and proof instead of ''I believe it to be so, so it must be so'' I realise you don't think you are doing this, but in fact you are. And who's to say what laws preceded our universe do you know what they were ?

If in fact you don't know, then simply say you don't, don't create gods to fill your gaps.

I'm not here to go tit for tat with you about specifics. If you choose to believe things that make no sense, that's your choice.

No sense if you choose to hide your head in the sand you mean, and wave away science as of the devil.

According to your standards, which don't matter. Only God's standards matter, and He has declared His creation to you very plainly, so that even the simple can deduce it. Something cannot come from nothing, and that's really all you need to know. If you need more than that, well, you're either an idiot or God has blinded you. There is no other option.

How have you determined what god's standards are ?

You deny His existence when you demand something He has already given you. You're saying "this isn't enough." It's enough. The problem isn't His, it's yours. You've created it.

Not at all, I know you have to believe this to justify your belief I simply do not believe there is proof for a god, perhaps you could show some ?

Well, a big one for me is universal salvation. People can't reconcile the existence of evil because they don't understand its purpose,

I can reconcile it very easily, I really don''t have a problem. It perfectly explained under evolution, the only reason you give harmful things people do a purpose and a spiritual meaning is because of you beliefs.

and its purpose can only be understood in light of the truth of universal salvation. Otherwise God is painted as unimaginably cruel, which just isn't true. I don't know of any religion that explains the purpose of evil adequately; only Christianity does.

Christianity explains nothing, it more easily explained via evolution, evil as such has no purpose or special meaning to me, other than it's a word used to mean harmful behaviour. I don't blame god for not stopping evil any more than than i blame superman for not stopping the 9/11 attacks. i simply do not believe there is a reason to believe either exists.

The truth can be measured when no argument is able to defeat it,

Do you really believe that to be true ? if so we could have a discussion on that alone.

and when it can be applied to history and everyday life. That doesn't mean you personally will be able to measure it, but others will.

Well if it's down to interpretation, then simply admit that call it personal truth or my truth.

Truly, if you can't even recognize the Truth when it becomes manifest, which I'm not even sure is possible, then you likely have no hope for salvation in this life.

I would probably have to be convinced there was a god to grant any type of salvation first.

The better question is, how can you call it gobbledygook if you've never heard the Truth? You probably haven't. Just because you hear the Truth doesn't mean you'll accept it.

What does accepting it mean, other than believing it because you believe it, what difference is there ?

Jesus Christ spoke the Truth and people hated Him for it, and eventually killed Him for it. The Truth is not a pleasant thing to hear, which is partly why it's so easy to recognize.

Where did you get that story from, the bible ?

I would probably measure the Truth by the fact that I ran from it as fast as I could when I first heard it. But I was brought back, because we don't choose the day of our salvation; the Lord decides when and how you get saved.

I wouldn't run from it, i just require a good reason to believe it's truth, maybe if you had done the same you wouldn't have ran from it.

Again, it IS a matter of faith. To clarify once again, we're no longer speaking of proving God's existence, but about my particular brand of faith. By the very definition it's a matter of faith.

So you can have faith in god, without having a good reason to believe there is a god ? How are you separating the two ?

See above answer. On the grounds of doctrine and common sense, mine is the only faith that can't be contradicted, as long as you want to concede that God does in fact exist for the sake of the argument(s).

Well that's what we are trying to establish, for instance if we accept that superman exists (for the sake of argument) then my anger at his none intervention on 9/11 may be justified. But who rationally would accept such an argument as a truth which some have been blinded to without first proving superman exists.

Well, we know because the Spirit of God reveals it to us, primarily. But one can also tell when one speaks by His Spirit, because it won't be contradicted by other Scriptures. Paul's epistles can't be contradicted.

Why do you believe them to be true was question, not IF you believe them to be true, we already know that. if there is no god, they are simply wholly wrong.

The world exists as it does today precisely because there hasn't been much grace given to men at present. And this is all perfectly okay and part of God's design...fortunately, things will be changing very soon.

Or because there is no god, and people just do bad stuff. No need to pollute the waters with various unprovable gods and faiths.

It's not gobbledygook, you're just repeating yourself again. The question isn't even necessarily "why would you repent to a god"; how about starting with "why would you not repent"?

People do feel sorry for what they have done, i see it every day, why i even do it myself.

Take God out of the equation, unless you happen to view yourself as morally bankrupt and don't care that that is the case. So answer that question for me, please.

I happen to view myself as human, who occasionally does things i wish i hadn't, what makes you think people don't care ?

All you seen to be able to say through these whole threads is essentially ''unless you believe what i believe then you are wrong'' you provide no reasons aside from you faith, which we have already established is no way to determine truth.
Please please tell me you have something more interesting than telling everyone how wrong they are, because you believe they are. If you choose to claim some insights from god, then justify that claim, really simple.

---

How do we determine that to be true ?


And how did you come to that conclusion ?  Other than he does not believe what you believe.
The universe from nothing argument aside. How do you know it came from nothing ?

Who says you have to determine it to be true? God doesn't save everyone in this life. Maybe you weren't meant to understand. Doesn't make it okay, but it is an answer. But to answer the question, you determine it to be true by the grace of God, and that alone. You can't receive one thing in this world unless it comes from Him.

As for Krauss, I never said I knew the particles came from nothing (if I'm understanding your language correctly). I don't know where they came from, either. But Krauss can't definitively say they came from nothing because he has no idea where they came from. He is assuming they came from nothing. They came from something alright, he just doesn't know what.

Most is a repeat, but i bolded the interesting bits.

1) well if it isn't true, then it isn't true. why would anyone NOT want to know it's true ?
2) The point is neither do you, Could they have already existed in some form ?

[MilesAbbott81]

So people, not god decide what is logical would you agree ?

No. I'd say that God gives people common sense. Everything about us is determined by God, including our ability to make sense of things.

And yet you happily give your man created god an opt out on that.
So i ask again, how do you know the universe came from nothing ?  

For one, He is not man-created, but I understand you're just being deliberately condescending. Naturally, the Creator of physics isn't subject to its laws. That's not exactly a difficult thing to comprehend.

No it's a serious question you are being asked, try answering from evidence and proof  instead of ''I believe it to be so, so it must be so'' I realise you don't think you are doing this, but in fact you are. And who's to say what laws preceded our universe do you know what they were ?

Who says there were any laws preceding our universe? What evidence do you have to suggest there were? And I tell you, if something cannot come from nothing, according to natural laws, then the source of existence must be supernatural. It still baffles me how this is such a difficult concept to grasp. And you'll cry "the burden of proof is on you!" No, it isn't. The burden of proof is on God, and He has provided it in many, many ways. Just because it isn't good enough for you doesn't mean it isn't good enough. You are not the arbiter of the standards of proof. He is, and He is very, very reasonable.

If in fact you don't know, then simply say you don't, don't create gods to fill your gaps.

I've spent plenty of time on forums getting into the nitty-gritty about things like DNA and the Higgs-Boson stuff. And one thing I'll say is that it never goes anywhere, and the people who cite these scientists as credible have a tenuous grasp on the subject matter themselves and are simply appealing to authority, which is a cheap tactic and very stupid.

Men lie about everything, including science. Take "Climategate" for instance. There have also been many hoaxes about evolution. Men are not infallible and certainly shouldn't be trusted, but people like you would much prefer to put your faith in men than God. You are receiving the due penalty for your error.

No sense if you choose to hide your head in the sand you mean, and wave away science as of the devil.

I don't wave away science as of the devil, but nice try. Science has its uses. My problem with science is that it has filled men with hubris.
People respect scientists for some reason, even though they're probably responsible for just as much death as any religion. We have virtually no understanding of things like biology, yet we think it's okay to genetically modify our food. Cancer kills millions when it's easily curable (if caught early enough) without radiation or chemotherapy, treatments which actually CAUSE cancer. The speed of light changed several times in the 20th century, along with the supposed age of the universe. Astronomy is just as big a mystery to us as anything else, yet you and others cry that you have the answers, or that your stupid and ineffective methods of determining the truth of a matter are the only valid ones. You say to hell with God because your opinion of yourself is so high that you think you don't need Him.  

How have you determined what god's standards are ?  

By the grace of God, but it's also in the Bible.

Christianity explains nothing,  it more easily explained via evolution, evil as such has no purpose or special meaning to me, other than it's a word used to mean harmful behaviour.  I don't blame god for not stopping evil any more than than i blame superman  for not stopping the 9/11 attacks. i simply do not believe there is a reason to believe either exists.

Well if you're fine with your own explanation about the purpose/nature of evil, then I won't try to change your mind.

Do you really believe that to be true ? if so we could have a discussion on that alone.

I certainly do believe it to be true. Of course, the one who is wrong won't be able to see the difference, just as you can't see the sense in what I'm saying. And that's partly why faith is required. The world will scream at you that you're wrong when you speak the Truth, because the world hates the Truth. It only matters for the one who can see it. I realize that's not a satisfactory answer to you, but if so then it was never supposed to be satisfactory to you.

Well if it's down to interpretation, then simply admit that call it personal truth or my truth.

No. The idea of subjective reality is a big problem in the world today. Moral relativism is destroying everything. To call it "my truth" would be like saying water doesn't exist. It just isn't true.

I would probably have to be convinced there was a god to grant any type of salvation first.  

What you really need is to be brought to a place where you actually want God to exist.

I wouldn't run from it, i just require a good reason to believe it's truth, maybe if you had done the same you wouldn't have ran from it.

You have no idea whether or not you'd run from it. How would you respond to someone telling you that you needed to be crucified? Assuming you believed it, you would probably run.

Well that's what we are trying to establish, for instance if we accept that superman exists (for the sake of argument) then my anger at his none intervention on 9/11 may be justified. But who rationally would accept such an argument as a truth which some have been blinded to without  first proving superman exists.

Your equating God with superman is the kind of condescension that typifies the arrogant people on forums such as these. No wonder you've been blinded.

People do feel sorry for what they have done, i see it every day, why i even do it myself.

Again with the presumption and arrogance! That's not repentance. That's regret, or feeling bad. While repentance wouldn't be complete without that, it's not even close to the whole package. How about restitution? How about confession? How about turning from ever behaving that way again? All necessary to be repentant, and that's why it's impossible to do without God's grace.

I happen to view myself as human, who occasionally does things i wish i hadn't, what makes you think people don't care ?

Many people don't care about the evil things they've done. Some thrive on it, actually. And you know what? You don't really care. If you really cared, you'd be repentant, and if you were repentant, that would mean you knew God, which you obviously don't. You don't care because you're evil. And that's the Truth.

I've not responded to several of your points, because it's clear to me that certain things just aren't getting through to you and I'm not going to repeat myself ad nauseam. I'm also having a little bit of trouble understanding precisely what you're asking because your writing is sometimes incoherent.

[possibletarian]

[GrandizerII]

MilesAbbott, again, your faith is not a reliable means to knowledge. You can have your faith, but you can't use that to argue that you know anything and you can't, if you really did care to have an honest discussion with atheists, presuppose the truth of statements that we naturally do not agree with. If you want to talk about God existing, God hating sin, us being sinners, and so on, you have to reason your way to these statements when discoursing with atheists; you can't just simply assert them as true.

[possibletarian]

[Astreja]

You all need to repent, or even as those on whom the Tower of Siloam fell, you will likewise perish.

No, I think I'll commit the Unforgivable Sin instead, and in the infinitely unlikely event I ever come face-to-face with your imaginary fiend, I'll tell it that I did it because of you.

Accordingly, Miles, fuck you and fuck the Holy Spirit too.

[fredd bear]

Thanks for that.

Really wasn't aware that kind of coarse language was permitted here. I'll keep it in mimd

Oh, I heartily concur with your sentiment

[Belacqua]

[MilesAbbott81]

[The Grand Nudger]

Is this the part where you pop out of the closet and yell "boo!" ?