On the subject of Hell and Salvation

[fredd bear]

[Abaddon_ire]

Not quite as sure  with this bit; 

Second Law of thermodynamics;  My understanding is that the law applies only to a closed system. Pretty sure the Big Bang*  was THE mother of all open systems. Apologists seem very fond of quoting it in such a way that it seems obvious that they have not bothered to read it, same goes for Evolution and Climate Change.

Relies on the assumption that everything started in an uncorrelated state. That is not necessarily true. That might turn out to be true or false, but as sure as small apples, I am not going to give up and hang my hat on some capricious crank of a god until the evidence rolls in.

[MilesAbbott81]

I'm going to confess that I've made a mistake here, and that is that I never should've mentioned thermodynamics.

However, the criticisms against my very simple claims can all be very adequately rebutted. Some of you are completely off the mark, and are putting words in my mouth, but that kind of behavior is par for the course here and I'm tired of combing through mountains of text to correct your mistakes. EDIT: Upon further investigation, there may not have been any mistakes. In any case I should not be making scientific arguments given my poor understanding of these things. My apologies.

The rest is debatable science, which merely brings us back to the same argument I originally posed. Apparently none of us here are experts on the subject matter, and it ultimately comes down to "who do you believe?" Sounds like you believe men; I believe God. What more is there to say?

[possibletarian]

I'm going to confess that I've made a mistake here, and that is that I never should've mentioned thermodynamics.

However, the criticisms against my very simple claims can all be very adequately rebutted. Some of you are completely off the mark, and are putting words in my mouth, but that kind of behavior is par for the course here and I'm tired of combing through mountains of text to correct your mistakes.

The rest is debatable science, which merely brings us back to the same argument I originally posed. Apparently none of us here are experts on the subject matter, and it ultimately comes down to "who do you believe?" Sounds like you believe men; I believe God. What more is there to say?

You are correct that is exactly what it boils down to.

I'm confident that I can show that men and let's not forget our women folk exist.

Can you show that god exists ? You see now how important this question is ?

[fredd bear]

Not quite as sure  with this bit; 

Second Law of thermodynamics;  My understanding is that the law applies only to a closed system. Pretty sure the Big Bang*  was THE mother of all open systems. Apologists seem very fond of quoting it in such a way that it seems obvious that they have not bothered to read it, same goes for Evolution and Climate Change.

Relies on the assumption that everything started in an uncorrelated state. That is not necessarily true. That might turn out to be true or false, but as sure as small apples, I am not going to give up and hang my hat on some capricious crank of a god until the evidence rolls in.

Ah. Have only ever seen the Second Law applied to earth, incorrectly it seems. My understanding is that the earth is an open system, as we get our energy from the sun.

As for the Big Bang;  you're saying we don't really know? Good enough for me.. I'll happily  accept 'we don't know, with 'yet' being implicit  rather than "god /aliens did it "

Does that mean I believe men over god?  Certainly not!  I'll believe whatever, let's just say a  Christian God, has to say about anything and everything---the instant some one proves to me he/she/it exists.

It's not god I doubt, [ once his existence has been established] but the standard of believers he seems to attract.

A problem is that apologist argue as if 'god ' is a given. Well, ain't for me, and I suspect for anyone calling themselves an atheist, by definition.  There  always seem to be exceptions; I once ran across a man on a forum who claimed to be both Hindu and atheist.
Wonderful religion Hinduism, so inclusive. 

 ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))0)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

On topic joke;

Catholic School, grade one; Nun asks "hands up all those who want to go to heaven"

Nun notices Billy has not raid his hand; "Why Billy, don't you want to go to heaven?"

Billy " Not if that bunch is going"

And" Heaven for the climate, hell for the company" (Mark Twain)

[MilesAbbott81]

You are correct that is exactly what it boils down to.

I'm confident that I can show that men and let's not forget our women folk exist.

Can you show that god exists ? You see now how important this question is ?

Well, I still believe that there is ample evidence of design all throughout the earth and beyond, and it's there for your consideration. I also know that it can be difficult to accept reality as it is because of all the horrible suffering and how meaningless our lives seem to be.

There is meaning, though. There is a purpose to it all. And thankfully, every single one of you will realize that someday.

---

I have one more thing to say, and that is that I would like to apologize for my behavior here. I'm not sure of the degree of my wrongness in this debate; I know I've said some things that are justified and some that are not. But we are either fully justified or we're completely unjustified; there is no in between, not in God's eyes.

I don't believe it would be right for me to continue arguing anything specifically, so I do believe it's time for me to bow out of the thread for good. Lord-willing, this will be my final post. Any other matters I think can be addressed via private mail if anyone wishes.

[The Grand Nudger]

I'm going to confess that I've made a mistake here, and that is that I never should've mentioned thermodynamics.

Hey, that's massively big of you.  I've been here for years and this seemingly simple redaction is just flat out beyond the ability of many of your peers in the faith.

However, the criticisms against my very simple claims can all be very adequately rebutted. Some of you are completely off the mark, and are putting words in my mouth, but that kind of behavior is par for the course here and I'm tired of combing through mountains of text to correct your mistakes. EDIT: Upon further investigation, there may not have been any mistakes. In any case I should not be making scientific arguments given my poor understanding of these things. My apologies.

Stahp, lol.  You said something dumb, and owning that was massively big.  Stick with that.  

The rest is debatable science, which merely brings us back to the same argument I originally posed. Apparently none of us here are experts on the subject matter, and it ultimately comes down to "who do you believe?" Sounds like you believe men; I believe God. What more is there to say?

The expertise of our membership may surprise you.

Aint nobody gonna pm your silly ass.  Keep being you.  It is, after all..all that you can do.  We have a thread for the "evidence of design".  

https://atheistforums.org/thread-54759-page-1233.html

[fredd bear]

[Angrboda]

I'm going to confess that I've made a mistake here, and that is that I never should've mentioned thermodynamics.

However, the criticisms against my very simple claims can all be very adequately rebutted. Some of you are completely off the mark, and are putting words in my mouth, but that kind of behavior is par for the course here and I'm tired of combing through mountains of text to correct your mistakes. EDIT: Upon further investigation, there may not have been any mistakes. In any case I should not be making scientific arguments given my poor understanding of these things. My apologies.

The rest is debatable science, which merely brings us back to the same argument I originally posed. Apparently none of us here are experts on the subject matter, and it ultimately comes down to "who do you believe?" Sounds like you believe men; I believe God. What more is there to say?

You believe men as well, just men who believed or at least wrote that they were in touch with God. Thus your distinction is moot, but well worth remarking upon. Many people claim to believe God or to know the truth of the bible and its morals, when what they are really doing is choosing to believe the bible, theologians, or Christian morality for their own personal reasons. Many times those personal reasons reduce to believing the bible, or "God" (as expressed by the writers of the bible) because it is what they have already chosen to believe for whatever reason. Those reasons are ultimately impeachable even if God himself is not. Many times, if not all times, these are simply examples of what psychologists term "motivated reasoning." Reasoning to a conclusion you already hold because you hold it. You claim to believe God, but the simple fact is that you do not know any God directly, and have simply adopted conclusions to fit your prejudices. That's not believing "men" at all, but simply believing one person, yourself, and whatever reasons or lack thereof which led you to those conclusions. You were previously asked, "How can you show what you believe (and I believe that you believe) is anything more than a belief ?" and rather than answer that question, you chose to deflect and reassert a prior assertion instead. I'd like an answer to that question, or a link to where you've answered it in the past. How can you show that what you believe is true? Why do you believe the bible? And how do you "know" anything about God and what God has to say on anything in order to claim that you believe Him?

[fredd bear]

I'm going to confess that I've made a mistake here, and that is that I never should've mentioned thermodynamics.

However, the criticisms against my very simple claims can all be very adequately rebutted. Some of you are completely off the mark, and are putting words in my mouth, but that kind of behavior is par for the course here and I'm tired of combing through mountains of text to correct your mistakes. EDIT: Upon further investigation, there may not have been any mistakes. In any case I should not be making scientific arguments given my poor understanding of these things. My apologies.

The rest is debatable science, which merely brings us back to the same argument I originally posed. Apparently none of us here are experts on the subject matter, and it ultimately comes down to "who do you believe?" Sounds like you believe men; I believe God. What more is there to say?

You believe men as well, just men who believed or at least wrote that they were in touch with God.  Thus your distinction is moot, but well worth remarking upon.  Many people claim to believe God or to know the truth of the bible and its morals, when what they are really doing is choosing to believe the bible, theologians, or Christian morality for their own personal reasons.  Many times those personal reasons reduce to believing the bible, or "God" (as expressed by the writers of the bible) because it is what they have already chosen to believe for whatever reason.  Those reasons are ultimately impeachable even if God himself is not.  Many times, if not all times, these are simply examples of what psychologists term "motivated reasoning."  Reasoning to a conclusion you already hold because you hold it.  You claim to believe God, but the simple fact is that you do not know any God directly, and have simply adopted conclusions to fit your prejudices.  That's not believing "men" at all, but simply believing one person, yourself, and whatever reasons or lack thereof which led you to those conclusions.  You were previously asked, "How can you show what you believe (and I believe that you believe) is anything more than a belief ?" and rather than answer that question, you chose to deflect and reassert a prior assertion instead.  I'd like an answer to that question, or a link to where you've answered it in the past.  How can you show that what you believe is true?  Why do you believe the bible?  And how do you "know" anything about God and what God has to say on anything in order to claim that you believe Him?

 Excellent post.

The words 'brick" and 'wall' have just popped into my head, I don't know why.   

Pretty confronting stuff. Miles simply cannot afford to accept your reasoning; it challenges his entire world view. Same with the rest of them.
Personal beliefs, and attitudes are inculcated well before the age of reason . The child simply accepts anything it is told by an adult. In my opinion , very few people ever question their world view. Atheists are atypical.

Not sure about adult  conversions. I can only surmise such people tend to be lost, perhaps having been deeply wounded by abuse or rejection. Certainly has nothing to do with reason.

In coming here to arrogantly confront heathen atheists, and 'tell them the news" [about Jesus and the gospel] such people run the risk of being deconverted by relentless reason. Of course with perhaps one exception, I think that's unlikely. Our christians are too thick skinned ,too wilfully ignorant , and too unaware to be in any danger of accepting reason and science as valid..