Meaningfulness v meaninglessness; theism vs atheism;

[Skipper]

There is no reason to believe that unicorns don't exist, see how that works?

This.

The whole argument of "Why would anyone choose to accept a reality void of meaning? " is one of the most infantile and stupid arguments. It lacks so much logic it's unbelievable...a world full of faries and unicorns would be much more magical than the one we live in now so should we go around believing in all that? Just because being Atheist dosen't entail some meaning of there being a higher power it dosen't make it any less valid. It's such a self deluding claim to believe in religion just because it "has meaning". My life has meaning, knowing that it's the only one I got makes it all the more special. You can keep deluding yourself and waste this life worshipping a bullshit god that there is no evidence for if you like, but keep it the fuck away from me and the rest of society who want to live free of the dogma, guilt, evil and pain religion takes with it everywhere it goes throughout history.

[Edwardo Piet]

So I'm curious...aww that spark of wonder

Good.

One states that there is love, there is beauty, there is meaning

That depends on the type of theism.

The other states, that in truth there is no love, beauty or meaning

Wrong.

these things are actually the result of material interactions etc.

Is that relevant?

The only love, beauty and meaning are actually just a lie that we believe because it feels good (which is ultimately irrational, but who cares right?).

What is your point?

This always boils down to Theism (in its broadest sense) and atheism in its material sense.

What is your point?

is to arrive at a Cross roads between meaningfulness and meaninglessness.

That depends on your perspective.

Why would anyone choose to accept a reality void of meaning?

It's not a choice. It isn't devoid of subjective meaning.

Christianity, especially Catholicism, is not irrational.

How?

In fact, Reason is strongest when it flows from the Ultimate Reason;

What is the difference? Why the capitalization?

reason is stronger within Catholicism than it is in any other worldview, especially atheism.

How?

[...]there is such a BEAUTIFUL system

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

given to us by the God-man Christ

How?

which is so meaningful?

How?

[Welsh cake]

So I'm curious... aww that spark of wonder, it seems to me that there are two worldviews out there with a high view of reason.
...

This always boils down to Theism (in its broadest sense) and atheism in its material sense.

Atheism is not a worldview.

In fact, Reason is strongest when it flows from the Ultimate Reason; reason is stronger within Catholicism than it is in any other worldview, especially atheism.

Atheism is NOT a worldview.

Permit me to submit to you a tentative suggestion: Go learn what atheism actually is first dqualk.

[downbeatplumb]

Not this again.

Atheism is not a world view.

And you may live in a pretty fairy tale, but the truth is so much more wonderful.

[dqualk]

Poor dqualk ....

1. You are a catatonic
2. You seem to enjoy fairy-stories
3. You believe anything anyone tells you (so long as they are xtian)
4. You seem to still desperately need to believe in Santa Claus

We have our AWWW moments as you put them (how quaint)
I might suggest that you look at http://atheistforums.org/thread-5025.html for AWWW factor.

We live very meaningful and successful lives sans your sky-daddy (or any other version there of) I understand there is every reason to believe that your sky-daddy does not exist. But then it really doesn't make a great fairy-story and there is no happily ever after.

I can't beleive a person with an elf as their picture is trying to tell me about fairy tales.

You are militantly ignorant. It is a shame. You do your cause no justice by being stupid and insulting. To say that Theism is believing anything anyone tells you, or the same thing as believing in Santa Clause is to say that some of the greatest minds of all time, and indeed some of the greatest minds living today, are not only incorrect but absolutely stupid. Grow up you child. You're not a whorish looking dark elf, you are a human being, created in the Imago Dei with meaning, not fake decietful meaning, but real meaning which stems from the love of an eternal God, not subject to temporality.

You have no idea what kind of dialouge that I am involved with. Perhaps I was raised an athesit and converted to Catholicism? It is certainly not unbelievable as there are many very intelligent people who have done so. You are a shameful person, and I believe you are one of those who atheism transformed into a worse person. That is not to say that all who are or become atheist become less moral as a result, but I'm sure you were one of them. Shame on you.

There is no such thing as objective meaning or success within a material-only world. You're success is another man's very real failure; it is wholly subjective. Your meaning is ultimately a lie that you beleive so that you do not commit suicide. As they say, the most important question in philosophy is, "should I kill myself?" For a Christian, and many Theists, the answer is simple, no there is a God who loves me and desires me to live and grow, to truly succeed. For an atheist the answer is either yes, or no becuase it is more pleasing at the moment to my material self to believe in a lie that anything I do is actually meaningful, or are you thinking at all? Most likely you are just random atoms banging around producing some illusion that appears to be thought. Ultimately you become some utilitarian epicurean, who can no longer objectively say that there is a Truth, or at least an objectively meaningful Truth. And in this sense Hitler is a hero for those who enjoy Hitler's lie (or the materialist subjective truth).

[TheDarkestOfAngels]

I can't beleive a person with an elf as their picture is trying to tell me about fairy tales.

At least KichigaiNeko has an avatar picture.
Even so, KichigaiNeko doesn't confuse fairy tales with reality while also coming here to tell us that we don't think there is any meaning in the world without an imaginary friend.

You are militantly ignorant. It is a shame. You do your cause no justice by being stupid and insulting. To say that Theism is believing anything anyone tells you, or the same thing as believing in Santa Clause is to say that some of the greatest minds of all time, and indeed some of the greatest minds living today, are not only incorrect but absolutely stupid. Grow up you child. You're not a whorish looking dark elf, you are a human being, created in the Imago Dei with meaning, not fake decietful meaning, but real meaning which stems from the love of an eternal God, not subject to temporality.

First of all, the greatest minds of all time can believe in some crazy things and can still be dead wrong on many things. For example, if Einstein could reconsile his views on quantum mechanics with observation, who knows where he could have gotten with his attempts at a grand unification theory.
Not to mention people like Capernicus, Galileo, Newton, and numerous others. Furthermore, most of the greatest thinking minds today are either atheists and agnostics with a relative minority of those who have reconsiled their religious views with their scientific views to maintain their objectivity.

Second of all, you have no real reason to believe anything else you said in the quote above.

You have no idea what kind of dialouge that I am involved with. Perhaps I was raised an athesit and converted to Catholicism? It is certainly not unbelievable as there are many very intelligent people who have done so. You are a shameful person, and I believe you are one of those who atheism transformed into a worse person. That is not to say that all who are or become atheist become less moral as a result, but I'm sure you were one of them. Shame on you.

intelligent isn't the same thing as deluded.
There are many intelligent theists, but each of them, by definition, are deluded.

There is no such thing as objective meaning or success within a material-only world.

... and you say this based on... what exactly? The love of god?
When there is evidence of this BS, the school textbooks will certainly be amended.

You're success is another man's very real failure; it is wholly subjective. Your meaning is ultimately a lie that you beleive so that you do not commit suicide. As they say, the most important question in philosophy is, "should I kill myself?" For a Christian, and many Theists, the answer is simple, no there is a God who loves me and desires me to live and grow, to truly succeed. For an atheist the answer is either yes, or no becuase it is more pleasing at the moment to my material self to believe in a lie that anything I do is actually meaningful, or are you thinking at all? Most likely you are just random atoms banging around producing some illusion that appears to be thought. Ultimately you become some utilitarian epicurean, who can no longer objectively say that there is a Truth, or at least an objectively meaningful Truth. And in this sense Hitler is a hero for those who enjoy Hitler's lie (or the materialist subjective truth).

I think you've just proven my point about the delusions you have about atheism. Drink AIG Koolaid much?
My hate/snootiness-o-meter reads at straight-jacket levels.

[dqualk]

In response to Doubtvsfaith,

I suppose the only point I'm trying to make is that there are legitimate systems of belief within Theism which account for an objective reason. This is important because it allows us to be what we are, moral creatures. Each of us have within us the conviction that we are meaningful, and that there is in fact an objective right and wrong. We all acknowledge a broken world, where something is missing. This thing that is missing is the unmoved mover, not only of material things set in motion, but of our longings and most basic desires. I believe Christianity more than any other system gives an account that best fills that hole that we know exists. Within Christianity I believe that Catholicism has the greatest claim to being the actual body that has guarded and handed down the teachings of Christ. The former statement is beyond the scope of this discussiong, and frankly I do not beleive it would make any sense without first passing the initial hurdle of believeing in a God that is omnipotent and omnibenevelont. After which one would accept a personal God who seeks to fellowship with us, I believe Christianity best suits the purpose, in every way, rationally and intuitively. Once that hurdle is passed I beleive one will come to the conclusion that Jesus' teachings make most sense within Catholicism. I do not even intend to argue the latter two points because they are points that are built upon way more elementary points that would have to be made first.

Catholicism is not irrational because you can not use reason to demonstrate that it is irrational. You can say that it is not necessarily true, to which I would respond, why yes, that is exactly what Jesus teaches us when He says that one must come to God with faith. That is actually a very rational thing for Jesus to say as it is irrational to say that one can have a rational knowledge of the Divine, as the Divine is not natural or temporal, but supernatural and eternal.

One could claim that it is irrational to believe that someone could be risen from the dead, but this is not irrational if one presupposes that there is a Supernatural being. I am not saying that this should be convincing, only that it is certainly not irrational, if one assumes the supernatural. It seems to me that when one hits on the ressurection you're still hitting on the same point I intend to make in this forum, that is that is death and meaninglessness the ultimate reality, or is it possible that there is the Supernatural. If anyone is interested there is this really interesting debate between Bart Ehrmand and William Lane Craig on youtube that talks about whether or not Hume is correct in saying that believing in a God is always irrational due to the problem of miracles. Craig offers very compelling reasons as to why Hume's argument is not necessarily sound.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhT4IENSwac

In Christ

---

to the darkestofangels (anothe fairy tale name, this is hilarious, it reminds me of this study that showed that atheist are something like 5 times more likely to be supersticious then christians when it comes to horroscopes astrology etc)

Go ahead and try to prove an objective fact or truth apart from God concerning morality or success. Yes I recognize that morality is still not easy, even within Theism, but at least within Theism you pass the first hurdle, and say yes there is morality, now lets attempt to make sense of it.

[TheDarkestOfAngels]

to the darkestofangels (anothe fairy tale name, this is hilarious, it reminds me of this study that showed that atheist are something like 5 times more likely to be supersticious then christians when it comes to horroscopes astrology etc)

I'm rather certain that that study is bullshit.
Otherwise, I can point to the study that there is a greater perponderance of theists in prison over the general public. Which suggests that atheists lead more moral lives.

Go ahead and try to prove an objective fact or truth apart from God concerning morality or success.

Two things.
First, no one has made a positive claim. I simply reject the claim that god has anything to do with our world. If anything needs to be proven, it's that you need to connect human morality and success to god.

Second of all, I can point to any and all human acts - successful, moral, or not - and positively use it to point out that none of these events prove or disprove that god is connected and that no such connection is warrented as an explaination.

Yes I recognize that morality is still not easy, even within Theism, but at least within Theism you pass the first hurdle, and say yes there is morality, now lets attempt to make sense of it.

With theism, all you did was state where morality comes from without questioning the logic or reason behind that assumption. You simply state that to be a fact whether or not it's actually true.
That's just as if you filled in all the answers on the test with whatever sounds like an answer rather than anything resembling the actual answer and attempting to pass it off as realistic and thoughtful answers.

You can boast, moan, and bemoan us all you want. It doesn't mean you're going to pass the test.

[Minimalist]

Because there is no evidence for your silly god....or any other gods invented by the fertile minds of men.

All the wishing and hoping in the world cannot change that.


You want to believe in fairy tales? Go ahead. I think its a load of shit. But great harm has been done by adherents to various religions all in the name of promoting their own vision of those fairy tales. That is a fucking shame.

Well there is no evidence for there not being a God.

All the wishing and hoping in the world wouldn't change truth, this is true. At the same time, your belittleing of the Creator, assuming He is real, would not make Him any less real.

Perhaps you are believeing in fairy tales when you believe there is no God? Great harm has been done in the name of selfishness and materialism. The GREAT evils of Nazisim and Commnunism are arguebaly the most horrific evils every dont by man, and they were done by intelligent and affluent men. Many religious people who do evil things at least are usually driven by various problems, like poverty and brainwashing by some elites for a specific agenda, almost always involving non religious reasons like land, money, power, etc.

There is no evidence that there are not invisible pink unicorns drinking tequila in a New Orleans bar at Mardi Gras, either. I put the probability of your vision of a 'god' at about the same level as those unicorns. In any case, it is up to the proponent to prove a case. Where is your evidence for a god.

(P.s. If you have nothing other than your bible, don't even bother.)

Hitler was a fine catholic...well trained in anti-semitism by his upbringing so make sure you know what the fuck you are talking about before you start down this road...for the umpteenth time around here. Unlike modern catholics at least Hitler doesn't seem to have molested children. Try ( and I know it is hard ) to remember that German SS Troopers wore belt buckles stamped "Gott Mit Uns." I submit that makes them shitty atheists.

[dqualk]

to Minimlaist

You are militantly ignorant. You do not seek the truth. You just insult people on baselfess bull shit.

Hitler was not a fine Catholic; you are a liar. Proving further that you are an immoral shitty atheist. I can call myself a chair, that does not make me a chair. There are very clear teachings on what it means to behave like a Catholic. Anti-semetism has always been condemned by the Church, when the Church is speaking as a whole. Yes there are Catholics who do evil things. This does not mean the Church on a whole condones, or ever condoned such actions. It has in fact always condemned them. If anything Hitler was an atheist who used his Catholic birth as a way to get votes from a very powerful Catholic segment of Germany. The fact is Hitler thought of religion as something to trick people with, so that they will do your will. But he certainly was not a devout believer. Two of the greatest organized, thoughtfully intentional atrocities of all time were committed under atheistic regimes which sought to silence religion, and Christianity in particular: commmunism and nazism. When someone does evil in the name of Christianity they do it in a decietful and underhanded way, misleading poor ignorant folk to do things they otherwise would not do. With nazism and communism, people willingly and knowingly committed these great atrocities because they were materialist who understood that objective* good is a fiction to control people (if you are an atheist).

You are using the part is like the whole fallacy and I'm sure you know better, you just want to insult and prey on the ignorance of others by saying things that are superfluous to the point.

The idea of God is far more worthy of belief and based within reality then the stupid shit you keep spouting off. If you truly can't see that its because you've blinded yourself with hate. I don't come in here acting like its easy to see that God is real, or that atheism is clearly false. I come in here humbly saying I know its hard. I know intelligent, honest, good people have struggled with these questions and honestly come up on different sides. I'm just trying to give reasons why I think the side I came up on, in which I am among GREAT company, is a stronger side, and perhaps I can persuade someone else, perhaps not.

My tactic to persuade on the issue is to point out that the atheistic system has a much more troubleing view of humanity and Theism has a very beautiful view of humanity, sometimes. I know this does not mean that it is true. However, I believe that both systems are consistent and have some measure of legitimacy, and if this is the case I think, after much struggling one should arrive at the conclusion that Christianity is true, and that our reality is meaningless and irrational apart from faith. As we have to base are most basic apriori observations on faith, or something akin to it. Within Christianity man is the pinnacle of creation and he is loved and his meaing flows from an eternal omnipotent source.

Instead of honest dialouge you continually try to derail me using STUPIDITY that is not to the point and that is fucking useless, because I can sit here and say insulting things that are based half way in reality but in truth do not contribute to the arguement at all. Like men molesting other people is new to any people group. Teachers, family members, and people of all religions abuse people. As a matter of FACT Catholic clergy do it far less than nearly any other group like say teachers or family members. At least witin Catholicism we can objectively say that what they are doing is evil and will be punished, in this life or the next, with conviction.