[Serious] Please convince me gender is binary

[The Grand Nudger]

I think that what you're referring to up above is commonly called sex...today.  Sex is usually biologically binary, though there are exceptions, as you mentioned.

Gender and sex are related, but not the same thing.  Gender includes the expectations you mentioned (which aren't the same between pretty much any two group of people - if theyre even truly the same between two individual people)_..whereas sex is just "is there a dick down there or not?" (which is the same across the entirety of humanity).

In that sense, the question "do you have a penis" is alot like "are you a dolphin"....whereas "are you a guy or a girl" is going to be very difficult to explain, even if you can quickly answer one or the other, lol.

[Brian37]

Gender is a biological trait and you can identify with whatever gender you want, but at the end of the day, MOST people are either biologically male or female.
There are people who are biologically neither or have components of both, so that there is no clear cut answer to the binary. These are rare instances.

I refer you to Caster Semenya https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caster_Semenya
She would fall into the category of intersex (not male nor female or having attributes of both)
And here is a link the to intersex page. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex

Biologically gender is not always binary.
Identifying as a man doesn't make you a man, in much the same way that identifying as a dolphin doesn't make you a dolphin.

But those who go to the trouble of presenting themselves as a different gender should be treated according to our social standards of how we treat that gender.
We don't treat men and women the same in society. There are different expectations.

Legally we should treat everyone the same, but most people realize that money can often make many legal problem go away or the lack of money can create more legal and police problems that anyone ever needs.

I am nearly 54 years old and I feel that my age and the generation I grew up in does have a factor in how I view gender.
I view it from a purely biological fashion.


PS.
I identify as The ROCK.....

While a penis and vagina are definable that does not give bigots the right to decide for others what their brains say or their bodies say.  I would agree though, even on any other subject regarding social change, older generations are slower to adapt. 

Even on issue of politics, economics and religion, humans do not like to have their social norms upset.

[polymath257]

First of all, there is a range of biological possibilities: typically, XY people have penises and XX people have vaginas. But, there are conditions where a person might be, say, XXY. So there is a genetic question for such people.

Second, the development of sex organs is not an automatic thing based on the chromosomes. It is possible to have a condition known as androgen insensitivity that suppresses the development of male sex organs. This leaves the *default* female sex organs. Often such individuals, who have female external sex organs, do not learn of this condition until puberty (or even later). Again, these are people who are XY and *look* female.

Next, there are the developmental cases of hermaphrodites, where both male and female sex organs are present. often, these cases have surgical 'correction' at birth and are assigned a sex by a doctor.

Next, we have the cases where some more subtle aspect of development is affected and the brain develops characteristics common to one sex while the body develops characteristics of the other sex. It is often the case, for example, in trans-gendered people that the brains show the characteristics of the preferred sex.

All of these are biological, whether genetic or developmental.

But there are also all the *social* aspects of sexuality (called gender). Who takes care of the children? Who gets paid more? Who does the housework? What do they wear? Do they wear makeup? Shave their legs? Etc, etc, etc. NONE of these is biological. And people can have e range of preferences when it comes to these activities. There is certainly nothing biological that says an XY person with a penis can't enjoy putting on makeup, for example.

So, yes, there is much, much more than a simple binary division when it comes to sex and gender.

[AFTT47]

For most people, it IS binary. As others have pointed out, most people have an intuitive gender identity that matches their chromosomes and their physical plumbing. Some (rare) people have an intuitive gender identity that is counter to their chromosomes and physical plumbing.

For some reason, some people seem to have a hard time accepting that this condition exists and want to persecute these people. To them I would say: Grow the fuck up!

[Fireball]

Also, homosexual behavior is observed across pretty much all species we have studied. One can't say that being a "butch" male is going to mean that he isn't homosexual, and vice-versa. It's a lot slipperier than that to define.

[tackattack]

---

OK I'm not arguing I don't have preconceptions and bias, I'm aware I do and am seeking to overcome them. You defeated any idea of non-binary when you said "girly guys" or "manish women" . 

It may be a subset, or type of guy or girl, but it's still a guy or girl. Perhaps rather than making declarations about personal pronouns and safe spaces, we could just accept that being a man is about more than just being a jerky jock and being a woman is about more than a maidservant? Wouldn't it just be a shit ton easier if we just accepted that our ideas of what a man and woman are vary based on culture and person proclivity, then what's going on out there now?

 Yes, but, also included in my comments was that the very phrase "type of guy" differs from culture to culture, and things that we place in one heteronormative gender binary here may belong to the other heteronormative gender binary there or even be a common trait of males here regardless of what we tell ourselves about heteronormativity and gender binarism.

People who reject heteronormativity and gender binarism -are- accepting that our ideas of what a man or a woman are, gender...have a basis in culture and personal proclivity, you..if you'll recall, based your ideas on some idea of a natural function, instead.

We could explore that, btw, and by reference to my final comment of heteronormativity from the last post. Would you kill a motherfucker if I asked you real nice? Some of our structural differences with females, as males, are thought to be adaptations to violence...positively lethal violence. That would mean that lethal violence is at least one of your male natural functions. If you're unwilling or hesitent to kill...does that make you less of a type of man?

If a female were more willing to kill..does that make her more of a type of man than you?

---

I said sex was genetic and gender either conformed with sex or didn't. I don't mind exploring the topic with you and I love your questions, because they usually make me think.
"If you're unwilling or hesitent to kill...does that make you less of a type of man?" If I defined a man as a killer then yes. I'm passive so in my eyes it doesn't make me less of a man, but in your eyes it might.
"If a female were more willing to kill..does that make her more of a type of man than you?" same answer. It still doesn't make either of them less of a man or woman in legal terms, or in societal terms.

@polymath257 , I don't think there is more than a simple binary division when it comes to sex and gender.

@AFTT47 and @Brian37 - I hope you don't think I'm trying to persecute anyone non-normative, I'm simply trying to understand it better.

---

Honestly, I don't really experience gender identity problems myself. Therefore, I am inclined to look at it as binary too, but that's the point. That's only my experience. Lots of people are saying they fall on a spectrum between femininity and masculinity. They sure behave like they do, so I'll take their word for it. There's nothing in my life experience that I could turn to for evidence, so I have to trust that people know how they feel about themselves.

---

Using Gae's words "one heteronormative gender binary here may belong to the other heteronormative gender binary" That's 2. Shell did the same thing "spectrum between femininity and masculinity" There is still no evidence I should change my definition of Gender to something other than male and female, guy/girl, he/she, woman/man.

|_____________Some type of MAN______________|_____________Some type of WOMAN__________|

You may be anywhere on your sliding scale with what EACH INDIVIDUAL identifies as what a man/woman is, but that's because you're not setting the goalposts in a definition (because it makes you feel less like what you want yourself to be like based on what your belief of it is supposed to be). Societies don't function like that, they work with laws, infrastructure and policies to better that society.

I don't feel tough today so today I feel like a sissy man. That works abslutely fine when you're just you being you. But going out into society and interacting like people are supposed to call you they/them/fi/ze/hir/hirs/zirs instictively is a little ridiculous, IMO. I feel like I'm being asked to identify people differently based on how they feel about themselves, or their internal biochemical systems work. It seems eerily familiar to my wife expecting me to read her mind to make her happy. I'd just prefer to ask you your name and call you steve.
I mean personally I don't care who you(the royal you) want to diddle, what you feel like on the inside, or what you're packing down below, as long as you can get the job done.


So basically where I'm at is
1. sex is genetic. Yes there are the less than .08% that have neither or both or some weird XXY, but we teach people that humans have 20 digits and 2 eyes, etc. We don't say everyone has to have 20 digits, but it's the well established norm.
2. Gender conformity mirrors the genetic binary norm and is the most prevalent perspective.

I still haven't seen any reasons to call someone a zir or hir or non-binary or a unicorn or a helicopter as the meme goes. I would like to accept that gender is non-binary, I've yet to see a convincing layout of ideas though.

Actually I just had a thought. What if people being all judgey and like little classifying machines utilizing normative society, have made people who once felt normative, less like the norm they define as manly or womanly; precipitating them to question their gender identity and subsequently addd to the societal confusion of gender identity? IS that thought just like totally off base?

[Shell B]

Yeah, I’m not into the pronoun game, but I’m happy to call someone what they want once they know me.

[Nay_Sayer]

If you start or end a question with "Convince me this isn't so" you'll likely never accept any answer presented to you.


For example; Christians are lost souls who follow a false idol and prophet and will end up in the great boiling, convince me otherwise. Bless.

RAmen

[downbeatplumb]

Honestly, I don't really experience gender identity problems myself. Therefore, I am inclined to look at it as binary too, but that's the point. That's only my experience. Lots of people are saying they fall on a spectrum between femininity and masculinity. They sure behave like they do, so I'll take their word for it. There's nothing in my life experience that I could turn to for evidence, so I have to trust that people know how they feel about themselves.

That's how I feel. I can normally empathise with peoples situations but where it comes to gender identity I can't. What this does is make me uniquely ill informed to have an opinion on it so I defer to people with gender issues on this subject.

[Acrobat]

There has been a lot of discussion on it lately, and there's a lot of informed and actual people that struggle with gender. Perhaps I need an education in gender identity, But I only see gender as binary. I'm open to be convinced otherwise. Let me start with a statement, which I'm sure people will jump all over.

I define gender normalcy as that which functions according to its design. Our design is in our DNA as male or female.  Gender identity uses the same words and is thus binary. Is this a true statement? Elucidate me.

PS- I don't think I did the serious tag right, I need an education on that too please

You’re referring to one’s biological gender. Gender identity is separate, and it’s significantly a social construct. Society defines male and female gender identity, such as what activities and aspects go into the female gender identify, like being very emotional, more empathetic, more prone to think with their feelings than rationally, enjoying cooking, wearing makeup, dresses, wanting to take care of kids, being more nurturing, etc....

While male identity, is like wanting to work in construction, be a patriarch, head of the house, aggressiveness, thinking more rationally less emotionally, liking video games, being a handy man, a protector of one’s family, liking beards and beer, and red meat, wanting to be a warrior hero, like sports etc....

If you share some degree of both aspects of the identies, feel you don’t exclusively identify as one or the other, you’re non-binary.

I know some people will be offended with what I associated with some genders over the other. But all you have to do is think if I held flash cards with each aspect, and asked you which gender do you most associate each attribute with, most people would make the same distinctions, that’s gender normalacy.