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i raised this issue on a Catholic forum recently and I was surprised how little it bothered people. I claim that Catholicism and Evolution are not compatible, based on the following:
Consider that it is a fundamental tenant of Christianity that ALL human beings, every one alive today, MUST trace their linage back to a single man (or woman) that committed the grave sin of rejecting God. If you think this was Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, fine - you don't believe in Evolution and you can downgrade to other discussions on the topic. However, the general consensus of science-based Christians (including Cardinal Ratzinger) is that, if you want to rationalize evolution with Christian dogma, you must assume that ONE human being (and only one), at some time in our past, was 'injected' with a soul. This was the first human being with a soul, perhaps 50,000 years ago (or 6,000 who knows). This soul-endowed human then rejected God in some manner, committing the first sin, and henceforth all his progeny carry that burden forward throughout all of history. Hence the need for salvation, and Jesus and the Resurrection, and so forth. I have talked with many Catholics on this and this is not in dispute. This is how you rationalize evolution with Christian dogma.
So...here was my point: If you subscribe to the above Christian rationalization of Christianity, you MUST accept the following:
1) There was a large population of "soulless" people
2) The one person with a soul had parents that had no souls, and perhaps siblings with no souls
3) The one person lived in a world filled with contemporary people that had no souls
4) All genetic lines EXCEPT the one with the souled person died out, so for generations, many people continued to live and be born as human beings without souls until their lines all died.
The above is not my opinion. This is what you MUST believe if you rationalize Christianity and Evolution. This is foundation, and the essence of salvation.
Am I missing something? In many ways I respect those that are Creationists, as at least that position is logically consistent.
One thing that has bothered me with religion is not so much that it can be false, but what you MUST accept if it were true.
All 4 premises are false, so any conclusion would be. Adam was created with the 3'rd component, Spirit. Plants only have body; animals have additionally, mind (exhibit soulish characteristics at mammal hierarchy). Angels and humans* being spiritual creatures have eternal life, unlike plants and animals. Animals are thus devoid of the spiritual component, which is the 'made in the image of God', could not transmute to a being with all 3 components.
* Commonality is spiritual, what is not common is Angels do not have a redemption plan, whereas, humans do which is a free will decision to elect eternal connection** or separation from God***.
** A large minority will opt for this option, approx 34 %. Zech 13:8-9 It will come about in all the land, Declares the LORD, That two parts in it will be cut off and perish; but the third will be left in it. And I will bring the third part through the fire, Refine them as silver is refined, and test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, and I will answer them; They are My people, and they will say, The LORD is my God.
***The description of it is in 2 Thess 1: 9: “These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power”. Fire and brimstone are metaphors describing this experience.
Atheist Credo: An universe by chance that also just happened to admit the observer by chance.
(February 3, 2019 at 8:50 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Lig dó freastal ar na daoine breoite, Lig dó leas a bhaint as an láidre, Lig dó fírinne a bheith aige Lig dó smaoineamh bréagach, Lig grá dó righteousness, Lig dó buille síos eagla, Lig dó coirpigh a chosc, Lig dó breithiúnais fhíor a thabhairt dó, Lig dó gach eolaíocht, Lig dó gach síocháin a chomhdhlúthú.
Let him attend to the sick,
Let him benefit the poor,
Let him possess truth
Let him chide falsehood,
Let him love righteousness,
Let him beat down fear,
Let him crush criminals,
Let him give true judgments,
Let him foster every science,
Let him consolidate every peace. - The Book Of Leinster, 'On The Virtues Of A King', 35-40
Boru
And that is relevant to those who have had the divine spark breathed into them by G-d passing on the divine spark to their descendants how?
Oh, sorry - I thought we were supposed to spout random bits of gibberish from our respective mythologies.
Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
(February 4, 2019 at 1:07 am)snowtracks Wrote: ** A large minority will opt for this option, approx 34 %. Zech 13:8-9 It will come about in all the land, Declares the LORD, That two parts in it will be cut off and perish; but the third will be left in it. And I will bring the third part through the fire, Refine them as silver is refined, and test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, and I will answer them; They are My people, and they will say, The LORD is my God.
***The description of it is in 2 Thess 1: 9: “These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power”. Fire and brimstone are metaphors describing this experience.
What a wonderful loving religion ya got there.
I don't have an anger problem, I have an idiot problem.
(February 3, 2019 at 3:51 pm)mrj Wrote: i raised this issue on a Catholic forum recently and I was surprised how little it bothered people. I claim that Catholicism and Evolution are not compatible, based on the following:
Consider that it is a fundamental tenant of Christianity that ALL human beings, every one alive today, MUST trace their linage back to a single man (or woman) that committed the grave sin of rejecting God. If you think this was Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, fine - you don't believe in Evolution and you can downgrade to other discussions on the topic. However, the general consensus of science-based Christians (including Cardinal Ratzinger) is that, if you want to rationalize evolution with Christian dogma, you must assume that ONE human being (and only one), at some time in our past, was 'injected' with a soul. This was the first human being with a soul, perhaps 50,000 years ago (or 6,000 who knows). This soul-endowed human then rejected God in some manner, committing the first sin, and henceforth all his progeny carry that burden forward throughout all of history. Hence the need for salvation, and Jesus and the Resurrection, and so forth. I have talked with many Catholics on this and this is not in dispute. This is how you rationalize evolution with Christian dogma.
So...here was my point: If you subscribe to the above Christian rationalization of Christianity, you MUST accept the following:
1) There was a large population of "soulless" people
2) The one person with a soul had parents that had no souls, and perhaps siblings with no souls
3) The one person lived in a world filled with contemporary people that had no souls
4) All genetic lines EXCEPT the one with the souled person died out, so for generations, many people continued to live and be born as human beings without souls until their lines all died.
The above is not my opinion. This is what you MUST believe if you rationalize Christianity and Evolution. This is foundation, and the essence of salvation.
Am I missing something? In many ways I respect those that are Creationists, as at least that position is logically consistent.
One thing that has bothered me with religion is not so much that it can be false, but what you MUST accept if it were true.
Boy oh boy have you come to the right place!
In essence I have a hypothesis that starts with genesis 1 and reads all the way through gen 2:4 as one chapter. meaning the 7 day account does not end where gen 1 end but ends on the close of the seventh day. in this 7 day creation you have el-ohim/father God doing all of the creating including man made in his image on day 6.
Now if you start chapter 2 on verse 4 it clearly states while Elohim was creating the seven days these following events took place by the hand of Ywhw after dry land but before there was trees as it had not rained yet.
Meaning all of gen 2:4 forward happened between day 3 and day 4. So Ywhw or "the word" or Jesus created the garden and everything in it between day three and day 4 of the over all creation. in doing so the garden was a perfect picture of everything the world would eventually evolve into including adam the first man (before the father's day 6 man) Adam was crested by Christ and was breathed into him a living soul. As eve was created from adam I would also assume but is not necessary as the bible is silent on the matter.
Now Adam and eve are in the garden and there is no time line from the end of chapter 2 and the beginning of chapter 3 the fall. this could have been a day month year 100 years or 100s of bazillion years evolution needed to take place.
We do know or can count back using the geologies to how long since the fall, and according to the yec's it was about 6000 years ago where man with a soul met the descendants of 'monkeys' (i oly say that to mock the godless monkey descendants little. ) which explains who adam's children married where the city of nod came from and just about ever other paradox or objection we have in the creation narrative. (where adam and eve were the oly two people on the planet at the fall of man. the bible never says that. in fact the opposite would be indicated.
February 4, 2019 at 11:38 am (This post was last modified: February 4, 2019 at 11:41 am by The Grand Nudger.)
Or...and I'm just spitballing here.....they made that shit up. 50/50.
To be incredibly specific, it isn't catholicism (or any form of christianity) that's incompatible with evolutionary biology. It's book worship that's incompatible with evolutionary biology. This isn't exactly surprising, book worship is incompatible with reality, that it doesn't mesh with some very specific part of reality is just a trickle down consequence of that.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
If you can get past the time line the church artificially puts on to the end of gen 2 leading into gen 3 all is possible.
We know Adam and eve were mortal as the fruit of the tree of life sat next to the tree of knowledge. (why eat what was forbidden and promised to kill if you didn't first eat of the tree that promised eternal life first??
we know they did die from the immortal existence as God said they need to be expelled before they eat of the tree of life and are forever alive in sin. and we know that Garden life was not life on earth So in gen 10 when it says adam lived a total of 930 on this earth, it does not count the garden... lest you can point to it on a map now.
February 4, 2019 at 11:43 am (This post was last modified: February 4, 2019 at 11:47 am by The Grand Nudger.)
All is always possible in fan fiction.
Meanwhile, in mere reality..there was no adam and eve - full stop. If the authors of magic book were writing today, it would read "and then god cursed them to sit in a cubicle for the rest of their days" - because the point of that story was not to record history, but to explain a then-current state of human affairs.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
(February 4, 2019 at 11:38 am)Gae Bolga Wrote: Or...and I'm just spitballing here.....they made that shit up. 50/50.
To be incredibly specific, it isn't catholicism (or any form of christianity) that's incompatible with evolutionary biology. It's book worship that's incompatible with evolutionary biology. This isn't exactly surprising, book worship is incompatible with reality, that it doesn't mesh with some very specific part of reality is just a trickle down consequence of that.
but look at what is hidden even from the church!! the church and Judaism has always seen creation a certain way. and here just by changing the traditional view we have something that can assimilate know fact. without changing a word. On one hand we had something that the ancients needed and again just by looking at all the elements with an open mind we now have everything a scholar would also need to believe
February 4, 2019 at 11:50 am (This post was last modified: February 4, 2019 at 11:54 am by The Grand Nudger.)
You imagine that you've reconciled your book worship with facts..but..... ofc, you haven't and can't. You just don't know enough about facts to realize that, nor would you be expected to defer to fact over belief if you did.
We've already seen that play out from the first moment you proposed your ensouled monkey man and you persist in that today. Many other churches do the same, the OP mentioned catholicsm..and it has a positively hilarious history when it comes to the relationship between fact and belief. I think that this is made particularly amusing since they aren't "sola scriptura" types..or, at least, they don't like to imagine themselves as such.....and yet.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
February 4, 2019 at 12:17 pm (This post was last modified: February 4, 2019 at 12:18 pm by LastPoet.)
(February 3, 2019 at 5:39 pm)mrj Wrote: I asked about that. There are no souls other than those that descend from the one that committed original sin. There are no souls whatsoever that are not descended from the one. Therefore, the first and only soul to exist was also the one that all subsequent souls inherited original sin from. There were no 'clean' souls. God picked one and only one person to carry that first soul - IF you want to reconcile evolution and Christianity (and the concept of original sin).
While being an atheist doesn't mean disbelief in souls, I find that concept of a soul in same level as gods.
As an atheist evolution is perfectly explained by natural processes, no need to reconcile it with old myths.
