WHY RELIGION?

[Yonadav]

For me, it was a passionate love affair with Jewish law. If you've never been there, you just don't know what it's like-- studying Jewish law, talking Jewsih law, living Jewish law, interacting with others who are living Jewish law. It's so passionate and addictive and you just love the others who are having the same experience.

A Talmudic scholar, here. Great stuff.

I have an inking of just how fulfilling such study can be.  

May I ask if, first, if you are Jewish? A practising or cultural jew?  Orthodox or Reform?

Perhaps we can have some views by some one who actually knows the Torah;

Eg: Brief explanation of the term 'mitzvot',  including its source according to Jewish tradition

Prophecy about the Messiah , as apposed to christians claims. In my experience, Christians rarely seem to bother asking WHY Jews don't except Jesus as the Messiah.


Does the idea of an eternal hell appear in the Torah?

An odd question perhaps; I read/ heard that "revenge is not Jewish". Correct in principle? . 

A lot o questions , I know, and a couple are a bit intrusive.I ask from curiosity and because I want an informed opinion.

  I have problems  accepting the views of evangelical Christians as being informed on the Torah or New Testament . Imo, the opinions I come across here  tend to be simplistic and dogmatic.

 I was brought up Catholic. We were not encouraged to read the Bible (so naturally, I did ,at age 16) From what I've seen over a lifetime, Catholic  faith is not based on personal knowledge of scripture, but on church teaching about scripture.

I'm Jewish but I didn't grow up religious. I became very religious (Orthodox) later in life-- what we call a Baal Teshuvah (Master of Return).
I spent several years studying for several hours every day with a kollel.
Mitzvot (or mitzvos in Ashkenaz) means 'commandments. We say that there are 613 of them, but that's sort of based on some difficult to explain traditions. We have a couple of different lists of what the 613 mitzvot are but one list will have things that the other doesn't, and so on. The basis for the mitzvot all come directly from verses in the Five Books of Moses, which is the part of the Old T that we call the Torah (instruction).

From our perspective, the that xian guy can't possibly have been Moshiach. He just didn't do any of the things that Moshiach must do in order to claim that title. We have pretty strong reason to believe that he wasn't even Jewish, since turning a Jew in Judea over to gentiles for trial and execution is highly problematic in Jewish law (halakhah). I have never read the xian new testament, but my understanding is that the king of Judea asked the guy some questions that seemed like maybe he was questioning whether he was Jew or gentile, and then handed him over to the gentile authorities.

Honestly, I am the wrong guy to ask about Jewish understandings of prophecy. We call the study of prophecy Nach, and it is studied by women. Educated Jewish women know prophecy better than most Jewish men. Men concentrate primarily on the Five Books and halakhah, as well as naviim rishonim (the early prophets- Joshua, Judges, Samuel, Kings).

We don't have the concept of eternal hell. We have Gehinnom. We burn there. It burns away our impurities, leaving whatever is left of us after that. The longest time that we can spend there is one year. We do pray for the resurrection of the dead in our thrice daily prayers, but we generally don't think about the afterlife very much. Judaism is about how you live, not what happens to you after you die.

Revenge and bearing grudges are forbidden in Judaism. Rashi gives a good explanation of what this means. A man says to his neighbor, 'Let me borrow your axe." The neighbor says no. A year later, the neighbor goes to the man and says, "Let me borrow your sickle." The man says, "I will let you borrow my sickle even though last year you would not let me borrow your axe." That's grudge bearing. Or the man says, "I won't let you borrow my sickle because last year you wouldn't let me borrow your axe." That's revenge.

[bennyboy]

WHY ALL-CAPS!?!?!?

[Belacqua]

Revenge and bearing grudges are forbidden in Judaism. Rashi gives a good explanation of what this means. A man says to his neighbor, 'Let me borrow your axe." The neighbor says no. A year later, the neighbor goes to the man and says, "Let me borrow your sickle." The man says, "I will let you borrow my sickle even though last year you would not let me borrow your axe." That's grudge bearing. Or the man says, "I won't let you borrow my sickle because last year you wouldn't let me borrow your axe." That's revenge.

This is really beautiful.

And it's hard to think of anything that goes more strongly against current American conventional wisdom. I don't know how many times I've seen people say something like, "If you give me shit I'm going to give it right back to you, man," as if that's just obviously good.

[fredd bear]

A Talmudic scholar, here. Great stuff.

I have an inking of just how fulfilling such study can be.  

May I ask if, first, if you are Jewish? A practising or cultural jew?  Orthodox or Reform?

Perhaps we can have some views by some one who actually knows the Torah;

Eg: Brief explanation of the term 'mitzvot',  including its source according to Jewish tradition

Prophecy about the Messiah , as apposed to christians claims. In my experience, Christians rarely seem to bother asking WHY Jews don't except Jesus as the Messiah.


Does the idea of an eternal hell appear in the Torah?

An odd question perhaps; I read/ heard that "revenge is not Jewish". Correct in principle? . 

A lot o questions , I know, and a couple are a bit intrusive.I ask from curiosity and because I want an informed opinion.

  I have problems  accepting the views of evangelical Christians as being informed on the Torah or New Testament . Imo, the opinions I come across here  tend to be simplistic and dogmatic.

 I was brought up Catholic. We were not encouraged to read the Bible (so naturally, I did ,at age 16) From what I've seen over a lifetime, Catholic  faith is not based on personal knowledge of scripture, but on church teaching about scripture.

I'm Jewish but I didn't grow up religious. I became very religious (Orthodox) later in life-- what we call a Baal Teshuvah (Master of Return).
I spent several years studying for several hours every day with a kollel.
Mitzvot (or mitzvos in Ashkenaz) means 'commandments. We say that there are 613 of them, but that's sort of based on some difficult to explain traditions. We have a couple of different lists of what the 613 mitzvot are but one list will have things that the other doesn't, and so on. The basis for the mitzvot all come directly from verses in the Five Books of Moses, which is the part of the Old T that we call the Torah (instruction).

From our perspective, the that xian guy can't possibly have been Moshiach. He just didn't do any of the things that Moshiach must do in order to claim that title. We have pretty strong reason to believe that he wasn't even Jewish, since turning a Jew in Judea over to gentiles for trial and execution is highly problematic in Jewish law (halakhah). I have never read the xian new testament, but my understanding is that the king of Judea asked the guy some questions that seemed like maybe he was questioning whether he was Jew or gentile, and then handed him over to the gentile authorities.

Honestly, I am the wrong guy to ask about Jewish understandings of prophecy. We call the study of prophecy Nach, and it is studied by women. Educated Jewish women know prophecy better than most Jewish men. Men concentrate primarily on the Five Books and halakhah, as well as naviim rishonim (the early prophets- Joshua, Judges, Samuel, Kings).

We don't have the concept of eternal hell. We have Gehinnom. We burn there. It burns away our impurities, leaving whatever is left of us after that. The longest time that we can spend there is one year. We do pray for the resurrection of the dead in our thrice daily prayers, but we generally don't think about the afterlife very much. Judaism is about how you live, not what happens to you after you die.

Revenge and bearing grudges are forbidden in Judaism. Rashi gives a good explanation of what this means. A man says to his neighbor, 'Let me borrow your axe." The neighbor says no. A year later, the neighbor goes to the man and says, "Let me borrow your sickle." The man says, "I will let you borrow my sickle even though last year you would not let me borrow your axe." That's grudge bearing. Or the man says, "I won't let you borrow my sickle because last year you wouldn't let me borrow your axe." That's revenge.

 

Thanks mate.   More detail than I expected, but most welcome.

I was pretty much aware of much of the stuff, but you've explained clearly and succinctly. Thank you

I was aware that Yeshua/Yoshua bar Yusuf (?) is not considered to be  the Moshiach. My understanding is, in part, because : The Moshiach  is to be a warrior priest in the tradition of David, he is most definitely NOT divine, he does not die, and most important, his arrival heralds an era of world peace.  (???)

I was not aware his Jewishness was in question.  My understanding has aways been that he was handed  to the Romans for execution by the pharisees. The time was  the Day Of Preparation for Passover. They made sure that the would not be left on the cross overnight. Would this have been done with a gentile?. I think I understand the problem of handing a Jew to the Romans.  That certainly suggests, that Jesus was not Jewish. Not sure that such an argument is conclusive , especially seen in the light of the 'Jewishness' of some of his teachings;Eg The Lord's prayer and The sermon on the mount. I understand that uncertainty is not uncommon in Talmudic study.  

Jesus founded a small Jewish sect.  To belong ,a person had be jewish or a Jewish convert, which meant keeping the mitzvot, as well as the mitzva of the bris.  In fact ,Jesus states categorically in the Gospel of Matthew that he has not come to change the law "by a jot or a tittle' (english translation).

It was Paul of Tarsus who abolished the rituals of the mitzvot,  well as the mitzvah of the bris, and allowed gentiles to join the sect..That is why  scholars often refer to Christianity as "Paulism". Without Paul, Christianity would have died as quickly as it had begun.


According to the Gospels, Jesus was questioned by Pontius Pilate, Roman governor of Judea. He was flayed, and sent to be crucified, on the insistence of a Jewish mob ---this apocryphal event formed a base for centuries of antisemitism; the Jews as Christ killer. It was Pope John Paul 2  who graciously absolved the Jews from any guilt in the death of Jesus. (I think the word is 'chutzpah')

My comments are by way of a short explanation for your information ,in hope that they may be of some help. They are in no way meant as an argument. The purpose of my questions was to obtain some credible information. This you have provided, and I thank you.

[Yonadav]

I'm Jewish but I didn't grow up religious. I became very religious (Orthodox) later in life-- what we call a Baal Teshuvah (Master of Return).
I spent several years studying for several hours every day with a kollel.
Mitzvot (or mitzvos in Ashkenaz) means 'commandments. We say that there are 613 of them, but that's sort of based on some difficult to explain traditions. We have a couple of different lists of what the 613 mitzvot are but one list will have things that the other doesn't, and so on. The basis for the mitzvot all come directly from verses in the Five Books of Moses, which is the part of the Old T that we call the Torah (instruction).

From our perspective, the that xian guy can't possibly have been Moshiach. He just didn't do any of the things that Moshiach must do in order to claim that title. We have pretty strong reason to believe that he wasn't even Jewish, since turning a Jew in Judea over to gentiles for trial and execution is highly problematic in Jewish law (halakhah). I have never read the xian new testament, but my understanding is that the king of Judea asked the guy some questions that seemed like maybe he was questioning whether he was Jew or gentile, and then handed him over to the gentile authorities.

Honestly, I am the wrong guy to ask about Jewish understandings of prophecy. We call the study of prophecy Nach, and it is studied by women. Educated Jewish women know prophecy better than most Jewish men. Men concentrate primarily on the Five Books and halakhah, as well as naviim rishonim (the early prophets- Joshua, Judges, Samuel, Kings).

We don't have the concept of eternal hell. We have Gehinnom. We burn there. It burns away our impurities, leaving whatever is left of us after that. The longest time that we can spend there is one year. We do pray for the resurrection of the dead in our thrice daily prayers, but we generally don't think about the afterlife very much. Judaism is about how you live, not what happens to you after you die.

Revenge and bearing grudges are forbidden in Judaism. Rashi gives a good explanation of what this means. A man says to his neighbor, 'Let me borrow your axe." The neighbor says no. A year later, the neighbor goes to the man and says, "Let me borrow your sickle." The man says, "I will let you borrow my sickle even though last year you would not let me borrow your axe." That's grudge bearing. Or the man says, "I won't let you borrow my sickle because last year you wouldn't let me borrow your axe." That's revenge.

 

Thanks mate.   More detail than I expected, but most welcome.

I was pretty much aware of much of the stuff, but you've explained clearly and succinctly. Thank you

I was aware that Yeshua/Yoshua bar Yusuf (?) is not considered to be  the Moshiach. My understanding is, in part, because : The Moshiach  is to be a warrior priest in the tradition of David, he is most definitely NOT divine, he does not die, and most important, his arrival heralds an era of world peace.  (???)

I was not aware his Jewishness was in question.  My understanding has aways been that he was handed  to the Romans for execution by the pharisees. The time was  the Day Of Preparation for Passover. They made sure that the would not be left on the cross overnight. Would this have been done with a gentile?. I think I understand the problem of handing a Jew to the Romans.  That certainly suggests, that Jesus was not Jewish. Not sure that such an argument is conclusive , especially seen in the light of the 'Jewishness' of some of his teachings;Eg The Lord's prayer and The sermon on the mount. I understand that uncertainty is not uncommon in Talmudic study.  

Jesus founded a small Jewish sect.  To belong ,a person had be jewish or a Jewish convert, which meant keeping the mitzvot, as well as the mitzva of the bris.  In fact ,Jesus states categorically in the Gospel of Matthew that he has not come to change the law "by a jot or a tittle' (english translation).

It was Paul of Tarsus who abolished the rituals of the mitzvot,  well as the mitzvah of the bris, and allowed gentiles to join the sect..That is why  scholars often refer to Christianity as "Paulism". Without Paul, Christianity would have died as quickly as it had begun.


According to the Gospels, Jesus was questioned by Pontius Pilate, Roman governor of Judea. He was flayed, and sent to be crucified, on the insistence of a Jewish mob ---this apocryphal event formed a base for centuries of antisemitism; the Jews as Christ killer. It was Pope John Paul 2  who graciously absolved the Jews from any guilt in the death of Jesus. (I think the word is 'chutzpah')

My comments are by way of a short explanation for your information ,in hope that they may be of some help. They are in no way meant as an argument. The purpose of my questions was to obtain some credible information. This you have provided, and I thank you.

Yeah, I knew you weren't arguing. We're just sharing with each other from our traditions.

[The Grand Nudger]

The trade off between the abilities that projection confers and whatever kinks may arise on account of it (and compounded by untold other factors) seems to be worth it.  I'd have to second the notion that intuitive satisfaction is a major contributing factor to the prevalence of religious beliefs. Even if we managed to do away with all of them, we would still engage in the same sort of projection - the only difference being it's level of elevation in the social scheme of things.

Every wrench I own is a bastard.

[Drich]

someone just asked this question.. here what I said:

Here's the thing I found (I started as a atheist seeking the truth no matter where it woud lead me.) and it took me through several religious expressions of the more or less same TYPE of faith. First and foremost... despite what you think about the superority of your ablity to reason over theirs.. People are not in general as stupid as you would have them to believe. While most may not be able to articulate their faith, there is a literal driving force behind all religions. There is something in each expression of faith that sustains a believers faith. Now I have found that soceity play a big role in many faiths. however it is oftentimes the case when that soceity fails so too go their God's as it was soceity making good on the promises of their gods. so when the soceital structure could no longer support their beliefs, and keep the promises of their God. soceity moves on to a different system of belief.

So I've found their to be 4 major types of 'religious fuel' things that support religion.
society being the big one but is often telling by the rise and fall of civilization (rome greece egypt all good examples)

self perpetuating philosophy is another these apply to more zen or spiritual based religions where one simply needs the correct programming or cultural inputs to interpret natural occurring cause and effect to be apart of full filling the promises and wisdom of the religion. Buddhism to a degree shintoism and to a lessor degree even hinduism

now we move into religions that span society and philosophy and move into a moral power base that puts one group incharge over another. here the religious hierarchy/the religious leadership becomes their god. WWII japan, North korea and down to more mordern examples like mormonism and scientology

Next we have the supernatural Whether it genuinely be God or a demonic influence people see and recognise there is a power beyond this world beyond our full understanding and they see it at work. to discern whether it be God or demonic in nature will be fleshed out in the commands the deity gives and or the promises for full filling those commands.

The big three religions fall into this category as these religions have span time despite society's influence, dictatorish rule religious philosophy and even a move to 'grow past deity.'/the rise of the newest faith/religious belief system... science.

What you may not understand is that on either side of one of these three religion is a super natural presence or power that affects enough people to maintain a faith for well over 4000 years collectively. Again you do not have the market n intellegence cornered here. people who work as chemists or engineers aren't the only cognisant people on the planet. The reason people believe after so long is because even n modern times the promises of said religion are being kept.

Now that said if you want to look at all the religions to see what the followers are being promised we can and I can show you how these are more or less self full filling except when it comes to islam and Christianity. where as islam demand more or less total obedience to the end goal of total world domination (literally) and to anyone who would die in this goal instant entrance to the after life and all the plunder and perversions that are forbidden in this world. God in this life has little to nothing to do with the common man, but supposedly speaks to the leadership through an angel.. (satan and his demons where angels) again look at the end goal of the religion and what is promised to the believer to decide who they worship.

With christianity bible based christianity any way we are promised direct access to God. no preists no go betweens just you and God not in the next life but here and now. what are his demands? cast off sin/meaning not sin no more but do not love or seek to embrace sin. seek forgiveness through christ and ask seek and knock for the holy Spirit, the over time learn to love God with all of your being and your neighbor as yourself. In those two rules all of christian is defined. the measure of God promised to all of us, and you will have access to the God of the bible.

Now there are many variations of christianity and whatever floats you boat will work so long as they all share the base principles I laid out. why? because if there is forgiveness when we openly sin there is a ton more available when we are worshiping God with all of our heart mind spirit and strength and simply get something wrong. Paul puts it this way; we are all members of the same body, but we are different parts meaning we see things differently we function differently and thus we will have different ways to express a total love. for instance a hand may offer to build to repair to write something as an expression a total love. while a foot may take yout to a place or away from danger or sin or it may kick someone's ass as a total expression of love which is wrong? which is right? they are doing two totally different things yet because of the grace we have been extended each is judged on it's own crb rather than to arbitrary line in the sand. which make biblical christianity different than all other forms of religion. while yes if you love God you will keep his commands, but at the same time we are not tied to a 'morality' like all other religions.


Nw it is through this freedom that I myself cashed in on the big promise of direct contact with God. and I am an engineer. so it was with a dissecting eye did I approach God in the beginning and I saw the pattern from which he worked with me to the point I could anticipate what would happen next (trial, blessing test reward.) To the point where he began to simply open doors for me and in faith I would sometimes be required to give up or risk everything on what would seem like a crazy deal to most but to me I knew it to be a door God opened. This is not a one two or ten time thing. these things happened repeatedly over 25 years, 18 or 19 of that in business for my self with a loan from a complete stranger/someone I have met once in passing/didn't even know his name. To a company who has a nation customer base two locations and looking to open a dealership outside this country if the opportunities keep presenting themselves.

Again people are not stupid even if they can not observe what powers their system of belief they know it is being supported by some force and that force full fills the promises of that specific religion.

That is why people believe. Some sell themselves short in their beliefs cashing out in this life with small promises to the next with no way to vet (buddhism provides a tranquil society and pleasant living system that supports it's base before a time where the government took that role. EG. cashing out the benefits in this life.)

While others hedge their bets with a religion that will allow them to indulge their most depraved desires by casting out the infidels and in the next be more greatly blessed with all manor of sexual exploits. Islam allows those who feel a pride or need to force everyone under them to break the world as it is and remake it into a place that serves the hierarchy of this religion.

While most christian denominations only focus on eternal life. God promises in the bible a relationship in this life and a better one in the next if you can learn to submit and work with him. in this life I have taken him up on this offer and in almost 20 years of working for him his abundant blessings have yet to stop. again All tayloried to me and my specific life. which is what he offers to each and every individual who will simply seek him out on his terms found in scripture.

While almost all churches can deliver salvation.. a relationship with God in this life and the next takes strict obedience at first to find and work with the holy Spirit. Any church can get you to heaven, but there are different level/jobs in heaven. You don't want to be the heavenly equivalent of a homeless person. That is why as soon as you are saved you want to move on to finding the Holy Spirit. Once you do Jesus said he will move mountains of doubt in your mind he will give you everything you specifically need to establish and maintain your belief. all you need do is be faithful with the truth he gives you and you follow it through

[tackattack]

let me sum that up for you drich.

If you want answers to life, seek society. If you want answers to the afterlife seek God? Is that about it?

[The Grand Nudger]

If it were, it handily explains why I'm uninterested in religious transactions.  People this side of the toll bridge making an ask are grifters, lol.  There's nothing I could do in this life to alter the disposition of my alleged soul in a hypothetical afterlife.  Think it through.  It there's a posthumous sorting hat I'm going to end up were the cumulative sum of my being funnels me.  

I could go through the motions, I could even believe in a christian god - but neither of those things would make me christian or capable of becoming a christian..and one suspects that a god would be able to realize that.  Either proactively in an example of divine prescience..or punitively as a case of seeing through pious theater.  

I'm going to live my life seeking out what's good for life and good in life, that's just who I am.  If this persuasion, eithr by act or ommission lands me in some pit, I was always going to end up in that pit..and no amount of bullshitting a god is going to get me out of it anyway.  So..I guess I'll just have to wait and see whether christians on this side of the ferry were wrong...assholes, or both.

Could go any way, really.

[900ft j]

"If a person can get so many of his basic human needs met by religion, isn't it reasonable to be religious?"

No, it's not reasonable because it isn't driven by reason. The needs are superficially met by self-deception - there's a higher power looking out for me, I never really die (awful since this can undervalue this real life), the need to feel secure through having answers to everything (I don't know, therefore god - which can interfere with searching for real answers and we can't properly deal with reality if we avoid it)...

It is far better to meet basic human needs with reason, not faith. Even the best illusions can fall apart and prevent us from realizing our own strengths.