It's (NOT) a miracle!

[The Grand Nudger]

Yes, we've heard of the miracle of the sun...it's exactly the sort of "miracle" the OP made this thread about.  You couldn't even contain yourself to honesty in describing it, lol...?

[Cepheus Ace]

Interesting topic. My parents are Portuguese. Has anyone heard of Our Lady of Fatima and the Miracle of the sun? Its easy to find info on it.

never heard of it

3 kids cliamed to have apparitions of the Virgin Mary on the 13th of every month strating from May to October in 1917.

On the 13th of September the kids supposedly asked Mary to give a sign so that people would believe them. So she said next month there will be a miracle.

what are the chances that they were making it up?
or exaggerating what actually happened?

About 80,000 people arrived to witness the event.

who were these 80,000 people?
who counted how many people were there?
is there any verified documentation of the identity of these people? photos? ID card? shoe sizes? fingerprints? blood types? etc etc etc
why 80,000? why not 49,846? 99999? or any other number?

 According to the accounts of witnesses

how many first hand accounts are there?
how many second, third, forth, fifth etc hand accounts are there as well?
were these taken immediately or several years after the supposed miracle happened?

the sun started to spin. Defying the laws of physics it was throwing out rays of different colours and dancing around.

Then everyone began to panic as the sun appeared to move closer and closer to earth but before any collision could occur the sun went back to normal.

this happened in Portugal in 1917 correct? did no one I don't know take a photo of these happening or a video? I know the cameras back then were crappy in image quality but I'm pretty sure people would've brought one to record a miracle. such a larg gatherign and not one reporter/photographer/camera man decided to record the bloody event?


the SUN is seen by half the planet at given time, if it started spinning someone somewhere else that is NOT Portugal would've noticed it and wrote it down or have wild local tales about the sun  auditioning for Dancing with the Stars. 

if the sun moved closer then the Earth would've gotten hotter and everyone would've flt a sudden increase in temperature..... did no one in the entire planet notice things heating up fast and decide to write about it happening?

where are the news articles from every country that had news papers taking about the sun dancing around in the sky and trying to come closer to us raising the temperature of the planet?


better yet did even the entire population of Portugal notice the sun doing any of this let alone the entire planet?

Sick and disable people were cured

again where are my verified medical documents of these people before e and after said curing?
did anyone regrow a lost limb?

and the kids became woke with these predictions that came true.

what prediction? predictions involve something very specific happening or not happening.


did they predict the sun would dance around or move closer to the earth? if so I want testimony recorded before the miracle took place.

The spread of communism just weeks before the Russian revolution took place.

what does this have to do with anything? did they predict this happening?  if so then where are my recorded testimonies before this took place

The early deaths of the 2 youngest kids and other predictions.

they died early... what does this have to do with anything? and what other predictions were made?

When I was an atheist I never challenged my parents. One of the reasons was because I am unable to explain the miracle of the sun

Some things don't add up. Peoples stories vary in how the sun was exactly moving. The 3 kids claim that they didn't see the phenomenon with the sun.
While throughout the world no one reported seeing any perticular movements made by the sun, not even in surrounding nearby villages.

How does 80,000 people all report seeing the sun do such things? Would every major newspaper of the world print such a story if it had no credability?

Ive heard claims that because they were all believers they had a group halucination... Hehehe ye sure.

So take a closer look if u wish and see if you can come up with a decent explination of how 80,000 people witnessed this event that was documented worldwide???

How would u attampt to tell your parents that their version of events is false without ur own explination?

so the 3 motherfkrs who started this nonsense didn't see it?  

the facts that peoples stories vary is already grounds to call into question the veracity of the claims.

here's a simple explanation: Pareidolia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareidolia
especially when people see something they went there expecting to see

Sun Dog
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_dog
there are plenty of stuff like this that already have natural explanations

these coupled with the fact that not one of the people there actually took a damn photo of it makes it highly likely that this is NO miracle.

[fredd bear]

@Cepheus Ace

I grew up in a devout Irish Catholic family. So yeah, I've heard of Fatima ,The miracle of the dancing Sun and the three secrets have never had quite the same cachet as Lourdes, which is mainstream woo woo land.

Miracle of the sun: No one can reasonably claim what was was seen by 80,000 people. At best ,it can be claimed that 80,000 people were PRESENT. Interesting that the children didn't see it. Simplest explanation; an invention. Slightly more charitable ; some people thought there was miracle, and honestly believed that they did.---in 80,000 people, not one had a camera? (it was duller than the normal sun) . My best , charitable guess is mass hysteria. Of course, the kids first saw an angel-------


As far as I know, Fatima is not church doctrine whereas Lourdes is. This is a very big deal for Catholics; the Pope spoke ex cathedra about Lourdes, the fist and only time a pope has done so since the doctrine of papal infallibility was made doctrine .(Pope Pius X1 1854) . IE it was due to that apparition that the Virgin Mary was declared 'The immaculate conception' (born without original sin) This is church dogma; Catholics MUST believe.

My favourite stories of mass hysteria are "The Angel Of Mons" and "The Bowmen" during WW1. The article linked below makes interesting reading, if only to demonstrate just how gullible people can be, especially in extremis. It's also a perfect example of the credibility of the concept of the eye witness.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angels_of_Mons

[Abaddon_ire]

Interesting topic. My parents are Portuguese. Has anyone heard of Our Lady of Fatima and the Miracle of the sun? Its easy to find info on it.

3 kids cliamed to have apparitions of the Virgin Mary on the 13th of every month strating from May to October in 1917.

On the 13th of September the kids supposedly asked Mary to give a sign so that people would believe them. So she said next month there will be a miracle.

About 80,000 people arrived to witness the event. According to the accounts of witnesses the sun started to spin. Defying the laws of physics it was throwing out rays of different colours and dancing around.

Then everyone began to panic as the sun appeared to move closer and closer to earth but before any collision could occur the sun went back to normal.

Sick and disable people were cured and the kids became woke with these predictions that came true. The spread of communism just weeks before the Russian revolution took place. The early deaths of the 2 youngest kids and other predictions.

When I was an atheist I never challenged my parents. One of the reasons was because I am unable to explain the miracle of the sun

Some things don't add up. Peoples stories vary in how the sun was exactly moving. The 3 kids claim that they didn't see the phenomenon with the sun.
While throughout the world no one reported seeing any perticular movements made by the sun, not even in surrounding nearby villages.

How does 80,000 people all report seeing the sun do such things? Would every major newspaper of the world print such a story if it had no credability?

Ive heard claims that because they were all believers they had a group halucination... Hehehe ye sure.

So take a closer look if u wish and see if you can come up with a decent explination of how 80,000 people witnessed this event that was documented worldwide???

How would u attampt to tell your parents that their version of events is false without ur own explination?

You try living through the moving statue hysteria and get back to me after. Moving statues

[Agnostico]

Iv only recently learnt about peoples alternate ego. I found mine and i fuckin hate him.
Don't get me wrong im not Sigmund Freud but i can identify my alter ego now.
And I can see the alter egos of others easier now, especially when they come from a place similar to mine.

Notice how no one was bold enough to actually go and have an objective look at the details and try to give an explination that makes sense. This is your alter ego and its fear. I found my alter ego was giving me all kinds of excuses and justifications to stop me from learning about something that would break it. And what do we find, a barrage of questions. The answer is at ur finger tips but ur alter ego will not let it happen. u can find out urself what predictions, how many, who. But didn't u? Seriously why didn't u simply find the answers? Ur alter ego won't let u answer that.
An objective secular person would look at it closer and try formulate an explination.

Im not making the claim. I even gave u guys facts that don't add up like that the kids didn't see it, that peoples stories don't match up. but it just got thrown back at me. Fuckin hell i can't believe iv been blind to my alter ego my whole life... FFAAARRKKKK.
U guys are so lucky ur alter ego has only fucked u around on such trvial matters that actually have zero effects on ur lives. Where the fuck was my alter ego in this topic... Ye ok i get it. When i was an atheist it was my alternate, then... i get it... Fuck...

Stay fixed in this position for 6-8 years and ur never changing. No big deal...
Serious advise, don't let that happen in regards to the important things in ur life... Ur alter ego will fuck u up...

Actually my alter ego came here to justify to him that my atheism was justified. Its gone now, something else broke it, i hope.
Need to construct a new one now and its said that i need a moral base to build on. There is none here.

Iv also learnt there is even a higher truth than knowledge. U guys aren't even close so i won't even bother.
Its so sad to see humanity stuck way back on a question of belief in a god made by some ancient text.
So much time and effort and i didn't see one person in here arguing the existance of god.
Who are u really arguing against? Ur alter ego. There is no one here but ur alter ego talking about god. So affraid is he.
Knowing he can shatter at the sight of facts he deceives u to not get bruised.
Just realized my alter ego is afraid to learn more. Have to keep going. Sigmund Freud, im ready to see u now.

Only wen ur ready to search without aknlowledging any theologins can u perhaps find thought.
After thought if u can repress ur alter ego enough u will see that theres always a possibility of some kind of higher entity.
Knowledge will be too late for alot of u guys stuck in a dogma. The highest level that i know now is simply unobtainable for u guys.
Doesn't mean anything in this scenario as ur lifes arent in the way. Ur simply arguing over nothing. Lucky

Anyway i can't say i found atheist to be civilized humans. They lie they are rude. I can't blame anyone for their alter egos. Ur not even supposed to be concious of it. It cannot be found without searching for it. U guys are incapable of searching simple facts let alone begin the search of knowing ur self.

From what iv experienced here but i thank everyone for displaying the true side of atheism for what it is...
One last question before I start taking this path which scares me. At least i know now its my alt ego scaring me, making excuses when i know i have to go and do this...

One last question. U couldn't honestly give my parents an explination. One thoery is the lack of empathy makes us blind to our alter ego.
Try be empathetic. Anyone heard of Russell Brand? Or imagine ur best friend says to u Iv been a drug addict for so long. I lost my job, my parntner and my kids. My parents disowned me before death. I didn't want to wake up, homeless, i was contemplating suicide methods wondering what the quickest most painful way is. and was only able to mend this mental disorder by following a higher power, God...

Do u seriously tell him his an idiot? Can u live with urself if u dragged him back and he relapses and overdoses?
What do u tell someone who comes to u with this kind of real life trauma?
Do u stick to ur dogma no matter what? Do u simply ad hominem me like many have from day one and pretend this doesn't happen?
Naturally a moral person would want to help their friend. How would u help???

Sadly i predict only the alter egos will show up. U know i see little evidence for a God but i see so much evidence for a Satan

Anyway i wish everyone the best. I mean that, a disagreement on a topic doesn't mean i treat u like u treated me...
Doesn't mean i take something personal like ur family and drag them through the mud like ur alter egos did without explination...
What am i doing. Not ur fault. All the best

[Abaddon_ire]

Iv only recently learnt about peoples alternate ego. I found mine and i fuckin hate him.
Don't get me wrong im not Sigmund Freud but i can identify my alter ego now.
And I can see the alter egos of others easier now, especially when they come from a place similar to mine.

Notice how no one was bold enough to actually go and have an objective look at the details and try to give an explination that makes sense. This is your alter ego and its fear. I found my alter ego was giving me all kinds of excuses and justifications to stop me from learning about something that would break it. And what do we find, a barrage of questions. The answer is at ur finger tips but ur alter ego will not let it happen. u can find out urself what predictions, how many, who. But didn't u? Seriously why didn't u simply find the answers? Ur alter ego won't let u answer that.
An objective secular person would look at it closer and try formulate an explination.

Im not making the claim. I even gave u guys facts that don't add up like that the kids didn't see it, that peoples stories don't match up. but it just got thrown back at me. Fuckin hell i can't believe iv been blind to my alter ego my whole life... FFAAARRKKKK.
U guys are so lucky ur alter ego has only fucked u around on such trvial matters that actually have zero effects on ur lives. Where the fuck was my alter ego in this topic... Ye ok i get it. When i was an atheist it was my alternate, then... i get it... Fuck...

Stay fixed in this position for 6-8 years and ur never changing. No big deal...
Serious advise, don't let that happen in regards to the important things in ur life... Ur alter ego will fuck u up...

Actually my alter ego came here to justify to him that my atheism was justified. Its gone now, something else broke it, i hope.
Need to construct a new one now and its said that i need a moral base to build on. There is none here.

Iv also learnt there is even a higher truth than knowledge. U guys aren't even close so i won't even bother.
Its so sad to see humanity stuck way back on a question of belief in a god made by some ancient text.
So much time and effort and i didn't see one person in here arguing the existance of god.
Who are u really arguing against? Ur alter ego. There is no one here but ur alter ego talking about god. So affraid is he.
Knowing he can shatter at the sight of facts he deceives u to not get bruised.
Just realized my alter ego is afraid to learn more. Have to keep going. Sigmund Freud, im ready to see u now.

Only wen ur ready to search without aknlowledging any theologins can u perhaps find thought.
After thought if u can repress ur alter ego enough u will see that theres always a possibility of some kind of higher entity.
Knowledge will be too late for alot of u guys stuck in a dogma. The highest level that i know now is simply unobtainable for u guys.
Doesn't mean anything in this scenario as ur lifes arent in the way. Ur simply arguing over nothing. Lucky

Anyway i can't say i found atheist to be civilized humans. They lie they are rude. I can't blame anyone for their alter egos. Ur not even supposed to be concious of it. It cannot be found without searching for it. U guys are incapable of searching simple facts let alone begin the search of knowing ur self.

From what iv experienced here but i thank everyone for displaying the true side of atheism for what it is...
One last question before I start taking this path which scares me. At least i know now its my alt ego scaring me, making excuses when i know i have to go and do this...

One last question. U couldn't honestly give my parents an explination. One thoery is the lack of empathy makes us blind to our alter ego.
Try be empathetic. Anyone heard of Russell Brand? Or imagine ur best friend says to u Iv been a drug addict for so long. I lost my job, my parntner and my kids. My parents disowned me before death. I didn't want to wake up, homeless, i was contemplating suicide methods wondering what the quickest most painful way is. and was only able to mend this mental disorder by following a higher power, God...

Do u seriously tell him his an idiot? Can u live with urself if u dragged him back and he relapses and overdoses?
What do u tell someone who comes to u with this kind of real life trauma?
Do u stick to ur dogma no matter what? Do u simply ad hominem me like many have from day one and pretend this doesn't happen?
Naturally a moral person would want to help their friend. How would u help???

Sadly i predict only the alter egos will show up. U know i see little evidence for a God but i see so much evidence for a Satan

Anyway i wish everyone the best. I mean that, a disagreement on a topic doesn't mean i treat u like u treated me...
Doesn't mean i take something personal like ur family and drag them through the mud like ur alter egos did without explination...
What am i doing. Not ur fault. All the best

What are you 12? Textspeak is for SMS. Grow up and get literate.

You learned nothing here because you didn't come here to learn anything. You came here with a dumb agenda and stuck to it, eschewing any and all honest discussion.

There is a reason you see little evidence for god. There is none. Same for satan. And there is no evidence for either because they are mere figments of your imagination.

[Huggy Bear]

ah modern miracles, they seem only true when there is no evidence but a lot of lying involved

Why do athiests have a habit of making up arguments and then proceed to debunk the argument that only they themselves have made?
To answer the question of why isn't anyone walking on water, or multiplying bread and fish? Last I looked those miracles were literally preformed by God himself, any of you see Jesus walking around?

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

ah modern miracles, they seem only true when there is no evidence but a lot of lying involved

Why do athiests have a habit of making up arguments and then proceed to debunk the argument that only they themselves have made?
To answer the question of why isn't anyone walking on water, or multiplying bread and fish? Last I looked those miracles were literally preformed by God himself, any of you see Jesus walking around?

That's not really a good argument in favour of miracles.  I can imagine plenty of miracles that God could perform without Jesus having to be physically  present.

To take the two you mention, if Jesus can feed a multitude with a few fish and some bread, why haven't modern miracles been reported of large amounts of food suddenly appearing to feed the hungry?  If Jesus can walk on water, why haven't we read about  God miracle-ing that same ability into people trying to save a drowning child? 

If you want to insist that Jesus be corporeally present for miracles to occur, all well and good - you've got a basic right to believe whatever you like.  It seems, however, that such a requirement severely limits the power of God. Or, is it your contention that miracles ended with the Ascension?  If so, same objection.

Boru

[Cepheus Ace]

ah modern miracles, they seem only true when there is no evidence but a lot of lying involved

Why do athiests have a habit of making up arguments and then proceed to debunk the argument that only they themselves have made?
To answer the question of why isn't anyone walking on water, or multiplying bread and fish? Last I looked those miracles were literally preformed by God himself, any of you see Jesus walking around?

so god can't do anything unless he's is present right where it happens...... by this logic no miracles have happened in the last several hundred years because no on has ever proven that god walked around when anything happened

[arewethereyet]

Yeah, Jesus keeps missing the date(s) given for his return(s) therefore no one has seen him walking around... on water or on land.