Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: March 29, 2024, 11:04 am

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Didn't Nero launch Christianity?
#41
RE: Didn't Nero launch Christianity?
(April 15, 2019 at 7:41 am)Lemon Curry Wrote: It's a great pity that it's no longer legal to feed christards to the lions.  

Has it been banned?
Religion is the top shelf of the supernatural supermarket ... Madog
Reply
#42
RE: Didn't Nero launch Christianity?
(April 15, 2019 at 7:49 am)madog Wrote:
(April 15, 2019 at 7:41 am)Lemon Curry Wrote: It's a great pity that it's no longer legal to feed christards to the lions.  

Has it been banned?

I thinks so but you could always check it out and, if, afterwards, you find that someone is strapping you to a couch and putting catheters into the backs of your hands and attaching them to some tubes attached to plastic bags full of clear liquid, then you may safely assume that I was right.  There again, it wouldn't matter because, in a minute or two, you'd know for sure whether de lard and his zombie son actually existed.
I don't know whether I need a bottle in front of me or a frontal lobotomy. Diablo
Reply
#43
RE: Didn't Nero launch Christianity?
(April 15, 2019 at 1:49 am)vulcanlogician Wrote: Of course. Outside the Abrahamic traditions religious tolerance was pretty common. That's why I've always held that religious tolerance isn't a modern idea, but rather a departure from the influence of Christian/Abrahamic norms. 

Still. At one point in time, Christians were a cultural minority, and "minority status" isn't something peculiar to Abrahamic traditions or paganism. Thus, incorrect as their beliefs might have been, I sympathize with the early Christians as much as any minority in any epoch. If records from Nero's era are to be trusted, the Christians were once scapegoated by the Roman leadership. My original point was that (if doing such a thing is wrong in principle-- which it is) then, those who preach "Do unto others" ought to be ashamed of the way history panned out.
There's only one source for that, Tacitus, and he absolutely hated Nero.  Nero was, essentially, Tacitus' Bill Clinton, lol. Tacitus was writing in 115 ad-ish.  The great fire occurred in 64ad.  Romans wouldn't even have known what a christian was.  They still didn't in 115, lol.  We know this because Pliny and Trajans correspondence was contemporaneous.  Pliny is completely unaware not only of the claim that there was a persecution under Nero, but also of the equally unevidenced claim of persecution under Domitian in the 80's and 90's.  He was a career government official from the point of time in which rome was still being repaired all the way up to the time of his writing the letter...who didn't know what a christian was or if it was illegal to be so.  The response he gets from Trajan is completely at odds with the persecution narrative.   Pliny and Tacitus and Suetonius are friends, mind you, lol.

Suetonius says nothing of this.   Dio says nothing of this.  Lactantius, who formed Constantine's religious policies, disregarded the episode as fiction.  It was a christian author in 400AD, Severus, that turned the story into an industry. The truth of the matter behind the mythos, is that christianity only began to become a thing after 115AD. It was then that small groups of the roman intelligentsia first became aware of the thing, which wasn't yet what it is today. Before that, no one would have known how to pick them out of a crowd to scapegoat them for anything. There wasn't even a word for them. The Roman empire would shortly suffer through the Antonine Plagues, then the civil war that created the barracks emperors...and out of that morass would come the christian emperors of the Constantinian Dynasty, ultimately culminating in Julian Apostate, who gives us a picture of what christianity had become in the interim and whose death lead to another ten years of infighting and out of which came oppressive christian emperors. The actual history of christianity's relationship with state persecution and scapegoating, is that of wielding it, not being it's victim.

You're sympathizing on the basis of fiction explicitly created to whitewash a bloody history, lol. It's like feeling bad for the romans from when rome was a backwater in nowheresville on account of how they swore that the rape of the sabine women was all the fault of those greedy sabine townspeople keeping the pussy to themselves. Wink
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#44
RE: Didn't Nero launch Christianity?
(April 15, 2019 at 7:15 am)Acrobat Wrote: And definitely not something, that could be so speciously interpreted to suggest Paul didn't' believe Jesus was a historical person.

There are other reasons to suggest Paul didn't believe Jesus was a historical person like Paul never even mentioning Jesus' teachings or ministry, life, miracles, disciples, even when they were specially relevant to the point he was trying to make.

I mean if Jesus' disciples didn't understand him, like you say, then why even go corporal when all he needed to do is show up at Paul?

Paul seldom quotes Jesus directly, but often indirectly alludes to the teachings and sayings of Jesus.

Seldom quotes Jesus? Make that never. There are only four times when Paul relays information he has received “from the Lord” – he never says from Jesus – and in none of these cases is he quoting any “teachings and sayings” of an earthly Jesus; or claiming to.

In 1 Corinthians 9:14 Paul says “the Lord” commands that preachers like him should be supported financially - something Jesus never taught in the Gospels. In 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 he assures his readers “by the word of the Lord” that dead believers will rise first when Jesus comes and those living will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air (“the Rapture”). Jesus never says anything remotely like this in the Gospels.

Twice in 1 Corinthians Paul says that, not he, but “the Lord” condemns divorce (1 Cor. 7:10-11, 25). If this is authentic and not just a later interpolation, then this would be the closest match to anything Jesus says in the Gospels. But again, he never claims to be doing so.
Reply
#45
RE: Didn't Nero launch Christianity?
"Gimme money and you'll come back from the dead - god told me this directly"  Popcorn

What you're going to run into, is a bunch of confusion as to which paul said what. The best case in authentic paul is in romans, seed of david reference. After that, phillipians. Likeness/appearance of men, even unto death on the cross.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#46
RE: Didn't Nero launch Christianity?
(April 15, 2019 at 10:02 am)Gae Bolga Wrote: The best case in authentic paul is in romans, seed of david reference.

But isn't seed of David just a metaphor considering that Paul declares how all Christians are the “seed” of Abraham, regardless of biology? Christ, by being the “seed” of David, was also the “seed” of Abraham that God had promised would rule forever.

Romans 9:7-8
Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Galatians 3:29
 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Reply
#47
RE: Didn't Nero launch Christianity?
(April 15, 2019 at 10:00 am)Fake Messiah Wrote:
(April 15, 2019 at 7:15 am)Acrobat Wrote: And definitely not something, that could be so speciously interpreted to suggest Paul didn't' believe Jesus was a historical person.

There are other reasons to suggest Paul didn't believe Jesus was a historical person like Paul never even mentioning Jesus' teachings or ministry, life, miracles, disciples, even when they were specially relevant to the point he was trying to make.

For starters Paul writing are directed toward communities of believers, to churches, and not to unbelievers, and are focused primarily on issues with the individual christian communities he's writing. But Paul mentions a variety of things about Jesus, that he was born of woman, was killed by earthly powers, resurrected, etc... He also mentions Jesus message throughout his writing, the Lord's supper, returning good for evil, on divorce, on the elevation of love, as the highest command and virtue. He also writes of his encounters with his disciples, and brother. Not sure how a supposed non-existing Jesus has a literal brother?

Quote:Seldom quotes Jesus? Make that never. There are only four times when Paul relays information he has received “from the Lord” – he never says from Jesus – and in none of these cases is he quoting any “teachings and sayings” of an earthly Jesus; or claiming to.

Lol, and any basic reader of Paul understands that when Paul says "the lord" he is referring to Jesus. In fact Paul quotes Jesus words from the Lord supper "This is my body, which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me." In the same way, he also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, every time you drink it, in remembrance of me." 1 Cor 11.

Plenty of early Christians, the early church etc.. have read the Epistles pretty intensively, and far more thoughtfully than you. None of them took away any of your specious inferences such as Paul didn't believe in a historical Jesus.

I don't if you actually believe the nonsense here you're suggesting, or if you're just trolling, but I've seen 9/11 truthers, and flat earth's make more convincing cases than you, lol.
Reply
#48
RE: Didn't Nero launch Christianity?
(April 15, 2019 at 11:36 am)Acrobat Wrote: Paul writing are directed toward communities of believers, to churches, and not to unbelievers, and are focused primarily on issues with the individual christian communities he's writing.

Except when his audience isn’t familiar. In his letter to the Romans, introducing himself and his message, there is not a single direct citation of Jesus’ teaching. In fact, in Romans 15:3-4 Paul all but tells us there are no stories about Jesus to draw upon – nothing but what we read about in the Jewish scriptures.
Also Paul feels the need to repeatedly remind his congregations of what he himself has already taught them – why should he have any qualms doing the same for Jesus?

(April 15, 2019 at 11:36 am)Acrobat Wrote: he was born of woman

You're probably talking about Galatians 4:4 but if you look at KJV you won't find "born" but "made" which is a right translation of "genomenos" that Paul uses here and in 1 Cor. 15:45, where Paul says Adam “was made,” not born, by God; using the same word, genomenos, as he uses for Jesus. Paul uses it yet again in 1 Cor. 15:37 when describing the new celestial bodies created by God awaiting believers in heaven. Paul does use the word genomenos hundreds of times, usually to mean “being” or “becoming” – but never to mean a human birth.

Indeed, if you actually read Galatians 4 you would see it is an allegory about mothers, as Paul tells us explicitly (4:24). As Paul explains (4:24-31), using the two wives of Abraham (one a slave, one free), Lord’s “mother” in this metaphor is the same we are all born to: the mother of slavery, the mother of the old covenant “under the law,” whereas once Jesus died to that mother, he became the heir to God under the mother of the new covenant, the heavenly Jerusalem and freedom.

(April 15, 2019 at 11:36 am)Acrobat Wrote: He also mentions Jesus message throughout his writing,...., returning good for evil, on divorce, on the elevation of love, as the highest command and virtue

Like I told you before, Paul repeatedly insists that he learned nothing of his Gospel from anyone else, despite all this, you still want to claim that Paul quotes from Jesus, but in every case (including the one on divorce), it’s never quite like anything we find in the Gospels… and anywhere Paul says something that sounds close to something from the Gospels’ Jesus.

(April 15, 2019 at 11:36 am)Acrobat Wrote: the Lord's supper

Actually Paul mentions a lot of suppers because Lord's supper was already a very familiar pagan ritual. By Paul’s time, communion rituals involving bread and a cup of wine or water had long been a staple feature of the pagan mystery faiths found throughout the Mediterranean world. Even the name he uses for this ritual he claimed came exclusively to him is actually a term taken from the mystery cults, kuriakon deipnon, “the Lord’s Supper (or “the lordly supper”).
The similarity was so great that Paul expressly forbids his followers from participating in pagan sacred meals: “You cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the Lord's table table and of the table of demons!” (1 Cor. 10:21).
Needless to say the honorary title of the cult gods in the mysteries was Kyrios, “Lord”

(April 15, 2019 at 11:36 am)Acrobat Wrote: He also writes of his encounters with his disciples, and brother

Brother? You mean the one that Jesus renounce along with the rest of his family? So how does it make sense that he had privileged status? Also Paul didn't say Jesus's brother but Lord's brother, and Lord's brother is a title Paul uses to call all sorts of people, perhaps proxy for Christians, like 1 Cor. 9:5 “Do we not have the right to take along with us a sister-wife, as also the other apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephasdo?”

If you actually read Paul’s genuine epistles you could have easily seen that he speaks about James in the same way he refers to his fellow believers, all brothers of Christ and sons of God.

(April 15, 2019 at 11:36 am)Acrobat Wrote: In fact Paul quotes Jesus words from the Lord supper "This is my body, which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me." In the same way, he also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, every time you drink it, in remembrance of me." 1 Cor 11. 

Actually Paul is just re-writing Genesis 14:18, the priest-king Melchizedek, like Christ, also takes bread and wine and offers a blessing. Moses, too, offers a blood sacrifice in Exodus 24:8, saying, “This is the blood of the covenant which God has commanded you.”
Reply
#49
RE: Didn't Nero launch Christianity?
Your list will invariably contain references to inauthentic paul, Acro..but that's neither here nor there, as we know for a fact that a significant number of early christians believed in a jesus that wasn't in any sense a real man and that alot of the christian traditions stories are derived from that group.

The only thing we could be debating is whether or not paul or those who wrote under pauls name were among them while leveraging the narratives. Or if he (or whomever), believing that jesus were a real man himself, accidentally used those narratives in ignorance.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#50
RE: Didn't Nero launch Christianity?
(April 15, 2019 at 2:53 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: Your list will invariably contain references to inauthentic paul, Acro..but that's neither here nor there, as we know for a fact that a significant number of early christians believed in a jesus that wasn't in any sense a real man and that alot of the christian traditions stories are derived from that group.

The only thing we could be debating is whether or not paul or those who wrote under pauls name were among them while leveraging the narratives. Or if he (or whomever), believing that jesus were a real man himself, accidentally used those narratives in ignorance.

No, there were no Christians early or otherwise who didn’t acknowledge a historical Jesus, so I don’t know what you’re talking about.

Even the gnostic sects that would have stood to gain the most out of a non-historical Jesus, recognized that he existed in the appearance of the flesh.
Reply



Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Why didn't the Cold War get bloody? shadow 30 2764 February 12, 2018 at 7:41 pm
Last Post: Gawdzilla Sama
  Apparently, They Didn't Know Minimalist 3 1036 December 29, 2016 at 3:31 pm
Last Post: Minimalist
  In case you didn't know. Brian37 13 2672 September 25, 2014 at 12:07 pm
Last Post: Minimalist



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)