Evidence for Believing

[Fake Messiah]

If a sola scriptura literalist reading of the Bible indicates that prayers today for a Mercedes Benz will definitely result in getting a Mercedes Benz, then that's obviously stupid. 

Way to go changing the subject. We were talking about sick people and dying children but you, of course, can't deal with that so you changed it to asking for Mercedes Benz.

Christians who think stupidly are stupid.

People who say that all religious people think at exactly the same level as the stupidest ones are bigots.

The bigot is the one who thinks that some Christian denominations are better than other - like you. You just called Catholics stupid (they're the ones going to Lourdes) and the majority of Christians are Catholics.

[Belacqua]

Prayer by necessity is for what you personally want

Right. But that doesn't mean you expect God or Santa Claus to hand it over.

Not long ago, the Pope said, "You pray for the hungry. Then you feed them. That's how prayer works." 

Kierkegaard, though not Catholic, would agree with this, as would many modern Christians. It doesn't involve supernatural presents.

[Nay_Sayer]

Prayer by necessity is for what you personally want

Right. But that doesn't mean you expect God or Santa Claus to hand it over.

Not long ago, the Pope said, "You pray for the hungry. Then you feed them. That's how prayer works." 

Kierkegaard, though not Catholic, would agree with this, as would many modern Christians. It doesn't involve supernatural presents.

So going by this, My lawn will cut itself but only after I've gone over it twice with my mower?

This statement baffles me, I will seek guidance from FSM in perhaps clarifying the popes and by proxy your confusing statement.

[Fake Messiah]

If God directly illuminates me through supernatural means which cannot be tested by any natural means, how can I give you any other solid evidence other than to relate my experience?  You might say I'm suffering from a delusion, but I have no other history of delusions and billions of others who have no history of delusions also believe in God.

Ok, let's see an example from that supernatural illumination experience from God on people with no other history of delusions

Video:




Hmm, kind of hard to take it for granted and not just being an illusion. I know, I know, I have to believe in God first, but if that belief makes me bow down to the bathroom door, I say I'm better off without it.

[Belacqua]

Right. But that doesn't mean you expect God or Santa Claus to hand it over.

Not long ago, the Pope said, "You pray for the hungry. Then you feed them. That's how prayer works." 

Kierkegaard, though not Catholic, would agree with this, as would many modern Christians. It doesn't involve supernatural presents.

So going by this, My lawn will cut itself but only after I've gone over it twice with my mower?

This statement baffles me, I will seek guidance from FSM in perhaps clarifying the popes and by proxy your confusing statement.

No, you have to cut the grass. 

The issue is whether prayer is a request for wish-granting sky-daddy to do it for you. The Pope's statement will seem baffling to people who assume that prayer is necessarily a request for wish-granting sky-daddy to give them something.

[Foxaèr]

Right. But that doesn't mean you expect God or Santa Claus to hand it over.

Not long ago, the Pope said, "You pray for the hungry. Then you feed them. That's how prayer works." 

Kierkegaard, though not Catholic, would agree with this, as would many modern Christians. It doesn't involve supernatural presents.

If prayer's that useless, you don't adhere to it. You cut out the useless middle ritual and do the proper work that gets results.

[Deesse23]

This makes me wonder about the idea that a God would only be good or relevant to the extent that it satisfied our individual desires. Give me what I want or I won't believe any more. 

Who said that? Right, you strawmanned that. Its the christians (largely) by the way who protray their god to be 100% benevolent and not 0.0000345%.

Lets assume god exists, for the sake of the argument. If the success rate for prayers is 0.0000345% like explained above, id certainly not waste my time worshipping/praying to this motherfucker, his existence notwithstanding. Your mileage may vary.

[Belacqua]

Right. But that doesn't mean you expect God or Santa Claus to hand it over.

Not long ago, the Pope said, "You pray for the hungry. Then you feed them. That's how prayer works." 

Kierkegaard, though not Catholic, would agree with this, as would many modern Christians. It doesn't involve supernatural presents.

If prayer's that useless, you don't adhere to it. You cut out the useless middle ritual and do the proper work that gets results.

Where I live it's common to visit a shrine before you take the college entrance examination. Everybody knows which shrines specialize in that kind of thing. You throw a little money in the collection box, write your prayer on a piece of wood, and hang it on the plaque that's provided.

If you ask the kids and the parents who are doing this "do you believe that a divine spirit will help you," they usually say they don't know, they never thought about it. It has value as a ritual. It's more like a "speech act" than a statement of fact -- the fact that you do it is what's important, not that anybody's listening to you. These are well-educated people, by definition, yet it has value for them. None of them would do the prayer instead of studying. 

Popes tend to be big on tradition, so I'm sure the quote from him isn't something he dreamed up on his own. And of course Kierkegaard lived a while ago, and he thought the same thing. The theology I'm most familiar with is that of William Blake, and I know for sure that he would also agree about prayer. He mocked Christians who ask for presents from "Nobodaddy." Blake isn't in the mainstream, but he's part of a strong minority tradition that has deep roots. All the English antinomians are on his side -- Diggers, Ranters, Muggletonians, etc. And the family tree goes back to Eriugena, Cusanus, Jacob Boehme, etc. (They would say the family tree goes back to Jesus, of course.) Currently Pope Francis would disagree with Boehme on about everything else, so the fact that they agree on this subject shows it's not so strange. 

If you say that prayer is meant to be a request for wish-granting Nobodaddy to give you presents, then all of these Christians agree with you that it won't work. That you have to pass the college entrance examination using your own brain.

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This makes me wonder about the idea that a God would only be good or relevant to the extent that it satisfied our individual desires. Give me what I want or I won't believe any more. 

Who said that? Right, you strawmanned that. Its the christians (largely) by the way who protray their god to be 100% benevolent and not 0.0000345%.

Lets assume god exists, for the sake of the argument. If the success rate for prayers is 0.0000345% like explained above, id certainly not waste my time worshipping/praying to this motherfucker, his existence notwithstanding. Your mileage may vary.

You seem to be saying that a 100% benevolent God would give everyone what they asked for. I don't see why that's the case.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Yar, I think Bierce settle the validity and utility of prayer pretty succinctly.  It hasn't got any.

Boru

[possibletarian]

Prayer by necessity is for what you personally want

Right. But that doesn't mean you expect God or Santa Claus to hand it over.

Not long ago, the Pope said, "You pray for the hungry. Then you feed them. That's how prayer works." 

Kierkegaard, though not Catholic, would agree with this, as would many modern Christians. It doesn't involve supernatural presents.

I think the point is that beyond some placebo effect prayer is ineffective, why not simply feed the poor for instance ? How does prayer add to that if people should not expect help from ?

I'm not sure it even says pray for the hungry in the bible, but in fact speaks out against it 'faith without actions' simply get it done is the motto.

The bible is clear, we pray for our daily bread.. (amongst other things) if god a god is going to rely on people around you to fulfil a prayer that the same god instructed you to make, in the full knowledge they would/could not, if such a god exists, what does it say ?

If the same god inspires people to pray for healing for the sick amongst you, and yet does nothing supernatural for that healing, then why not simply instruct people to call for a physician, at least that way we wouldn't have the tragedies we hear about.

If it looks and acts like a man made faith.......


Out on interest do you pray, if so to which god (or gods), what do you pray for, and why ?