[Serious] Singing the N-word

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

No, but I also won't die if I don't have cream on my oatmeal.  It isn't about what's fatal and what isn't, it's about claiming ownership of a word.

To be clear, I don't approve of the n-word, due to its history and connotations (as has been mentioned before).  I think it's a vile, despicable word.  I can completely understand why people shouldn't use it.  I don't understand why people shouldn't say it when they're quoting someone else.  Drake uses the word in a song and no one bats an eye.  But if I say that word while singing along to the song, I'm a racist. It isn't as if I'm using that word about someone or directed that word to someone.

Boru

Heh.  I just flashed on last year's 'Baby, It's Cold Outside' debate.

I get that, but if the black community in general [in America at least] have made it very clear that you shouldn't say that word at all, not even in songs, knowing the history behind that word and knowing that it isn't just a slur but a traumatic reminder to black people of the slavery of their past along with the institutionalized racism and the the white privilege that continues to hold to this day, why would someone who understands this still use the word in any context (even if not directed at someone)?

Hell, some black people don't even like it when other black people use it.

https://www.dukechronicle.com/article/20...d-in-music

Article above authored by a black woman.

I find myself in agreement with Ms. Priester.  I don't like hearing the word, regardless of who says it.  But it seems sort of disingenuous when artists who perpetuate the word don't want non-black people to sing along. 

I'm the last person to tell black people what words they should or should not include in their songs, but if it wasn't being perpetuated in this manner, we wouldn't even need this discussion.

Richard Pryor once told a very salient story about why he stopped using the n-word in his act.  On his first visit to Africa, he had this internal conversation with himself:

'What do you see?'

'People.'

'Do you see any n*****s?'

'No.'

'Why not?'

'Because there aren't any.  There's just people.'

Boru

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

So, what is the situational difference between using the word while doing a public reading of a work where the N-word is used as a weapon and singing along to a song that uses it more casually and not as a weapon? It's the blatant double standard at play that vexes a lot of us, and the fact that a group that's historically been oppressed benefiting for once doesn't quite ease our minds.

If you are talking quoting a history book or documentary then nobody should have a problem if it is merely reporting history saying "this happened and people used this word". But a song isn't a history report, it is entertainment, so again, time place and context matter and knowing your audience matters. You cant simply say "whenever, wherever."

As an atheist, I can handle other atheists joking with me claiming I love Stalin and barbecue kittens. But when a fundy falsely accuses me, because I am an an atheist, I must love dictators, and they hate me, that is done out of fear and bigotry.

But even with liberal theists who don't hate me, but still don't completely understand, even they can say things that are ignorant without realizing it. 

It is even the same with "Rednecks". HillbillyAtheist a member here, my best friend from  Oklahoma, and a liberal, he can handle me joking with him and calling him a "redneck". But he hates it when he sees coastals basically say, "fuck the middle of the country, fuck those trailer trash rednecks."

So I get it when you hear a country artist use the word "redneck" in a song, and also get it when John(Hillbilly Atheist) gets angry at others whom use it in a derogatory context.

There are tons of pejoratives for all sorts of minorities, Mexicans, Jews, Chinese, Polish, Italians. So if you are going to use a word not being part of that group, and you are not a bigot, you should know the history behind that word, and also know your audience and not use it indiscriminately.

But it isn't about the word being used in a derogatory context.  If someone is singing along with a song that contains the word 'redneck', s/he's using it in exactly the same context as the artist.

Boru

[Brian37]

Sorry, but I will sing all the words to any song I like. I would never use it as a slur, but I draw the line at being told I can't repeat what other people have said as quoted or else I'm racist. You can fuck right off with that.

I agree. But there is what is in your head, and how others react to what you do. 

If we are to be empathetic to others it isn't a matter of being PC, but simply understanding time place and context.

I love South Park, and that show rips on everyone, even had an episode where they had Richard Dawkins fucking Mrs Garrison. I laughed my ass off.

But even with liberal theists, I have had close theist friends who have still said ignorant things about atheists not understanding the error in their logic. 

I agree, the people that know you know you are not using the "n" as a slur, but there unfortunately are those who do use it as a slur. 

Cris is still right, "Not really".  I take that as "it depends" and "know your audience."

I don't take offense to South Park poking fun of atheists because I get the context that the entire show pokes fun of everyone of every label to say, "Don't take life so seriously, you'll never get out of it alive." 

It isn't a "never say this or that" demand, but time place and context.

---

If you are talking quoting a history book or documentary then nobody should have a problem if it is merely reporting history saying "this happened and people used this word". But a song isn't a history report, it is entertainment, so again, time place and context matter and knowing your audience matters. You cant simply say "whenever, wherever."

As an atheist, I can handle other atheists joking with me claiming I love Stalin and barbecue kittens. But when a fundy falsely accuses me, because I am an an atheist, I must love dictators, and they hate me, that is done out of fear and bigotry.

But even with liberal theists who don't hate me, but still don't completely understand, even they can say things that are ignorant without realizing it. 

It is even the same with "Rednecks". HillbillyAtheist a member here, my best friend from  Oklahoma, and a liberal, he can handle me joking with him and calling him a "redneck". But he hates it when he sees coastals basically say, "fuck the middle of the country, fuck those trailer trash rednecks."

So I get it when you hear a country artist use the word "redneck" in a song, and also get it when John(Hillbilly Atheist) gets angry at others whom use it in a derogatory context.

There are tons of pejoratives for all sorts of minorities, Mexicans, Jews, Chinese, Polish, Italians. So if you are going to use a word not being part of that group, and you are not a bigot, you should know the history behind that word, and also know your audience and not use it indiscriminately.

But it isn't about the word being used in a derogatory context.  If someone is singing along with a song that contains the word 'redneck', s/he's using it in exactly the same context as the artist.

Boru

I get that, and that is what Chris was saying, but he is still right in saying "not really". 

If a bigoted KKK asshole loved that same song and sang it, he wouldn't be singing it in loving inclusive manor. Point is, it still depends and know your audience.

[Little lunch]

What about if my mum's black but I have white skin. Can I say n-word then or do I have to look the part?

How fucking stupid.

If you're a white person arguing that we shouldn't be able to say a word that black people should then you're probably a racist who's desperately trying to cover it all up.
Us non-racists don't give a shit about all that crap.
We just treat people equally.

Moderator Notice
Edited the objectionable word

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Sorry, but I will sing all the words to any song I like. I would never use it as a slur, but I draw the line at being told I can't repeat what other people have said as quoted or else I'm racist. You can fuck right off with that.

I agree. But there is what is in your head, and how others react to what you do. 

If we are to be empathetic to others it isn't a matter of being PC, but simply understanding time place and context.

I love South Park, and that show rips on everyone, even had an episode where they had Richard Dawkins fucking Mrs Garrison. I laughed my ass off.

But even with liberal theists, I have had close theist friends who have still said ignorant things about atheists not understanding the error in their logic. 

I agree, the people that know you know you are not using the "n" as a slur, but there unfortunately are those who do use it as a slur. 

Cris is still right, "Not really".  I take that as "it depends" and "know your audience."

I don't take offense to South Park poking fun of atheists because I get the context that the entire show pokes fun of everyone of every label to say, "Don't take life so seriously, you'll never get out of it alive." 

It isn't a "never say this or that" demand, but time place and context.

---

But it isn't about the word being used in a derogatory context.  If someone is singing along with a song that contains the word 'redneck', s/he's using it in exactly the same context as the artist.

Boru

I get that, and that is what Chris was saying, but he is still right in saying "not really". 

If a bigoted KKK asshole loved that same song and sang it, he wouldn't be singing it in loving inclusive manor. Point is, it still depends and know your audience.

I find unlikely to the point of imbecility that a 'bigoted KKK asshole' would love a rap song.

Boru

[Brian37]

I agree. But there is what is in your head, and how others react to what you do. 

If we are to be empathetic to others it isn't a matter of being PC, but simply understanding time place and context.

I love South Park, and that show rips on everyone, even had an episode where they had Richard Dawkins fucking Mrs Garrison. I laughed my ass off.

But even with liberal theists, I have had close theist friends who have still said ignorant things about atheists not understanding the error in their logic. 

I agree, the people that know you know you are not using the "n" as a slur, but there unfortunately are those who do use it as a slur. 

Cris is still right, "Not really".  I take that as "it depends" and "know your audience."

I don't take offense to South Park poking fun of atheists because I get the context that the entire show pokes fun of everyone of every label to say, "Don't take life so seriously, you'll never get out of it alive." 

It isn't a "never say this or that" demand, but time place and context.

---

I get that, and that is what Chris was saying, but he is still right in saying "not really". 

If a bigoted KKK asshole loved that same song and sang it, he wouldn't be singing it in loving inclusive manor. Point is, it still depends and know your audience.

I find unlikely to the point of imbecility that a 'bigoted KKK asshole' would love a rap song.

Boru

You'd think?

It is a watered down version of full bigotry, the same "some of my best friends are" or "bless their heart".

It is possible for a bigot to envy something about you, but still feel threatened by your existence. 

Much like how heterosexual homophobes will say, " I don't care that you exist, but".

If you are going to rightfully point out that many blacks say not even blacks should use the "n" word, then you should be able to understand the same thing with the word "gay"

" I support gays" isn't the same context as......

"That jacket you are wearing is so gay." (Meaning they don't like it.)

A bigot can lie to your face and pretend so it isn't as simple as anyone wants to make it.

[Little lunch]

Rarely have I ever heard it said by a white person but I've heard it countless times by black people.
They can say it, we can't say it, unless they sing it and we sing along with them, but nobody can write it down, unless you swap some of the letters for other symbols.
It's a fucking comedy.

[Brian37]

If I say the N-word in public, even in singing, and there were black people around telling me to stop using that word, why on earth would I want to keep being an inconsiderate dick about it and ignore what this word really is for them? It's ok, you can survive without having to say the N-word in front of them.

Personally, I don't even say it in private because I don't have this urge to repeat lyrics from rap songs that include that word.

Should you also self-censor when doing a public reading of, say, Huckleberry Finn or To Kill A Mockingbird?  The argument can be made that by saying (or singing) the words as the artist wrote them is a nod to artistic integrity.  I don't consider myself qualified to re-write Twain or Drake or Snoop Dog.

And where does it end?  Plenty of other words are offensive to plenty of other people.  Are you going to change 'Injun Joe' to 'Native American Joe'?  Several of Shakespeare's plays contain punning references to the word 'cunt'.  Should we bowdlerize these as well?

But what the OP boils down to is, 'It was OK for him to write it, but it's not OK for you to say it.' 

Boru

Way to miss the point.

I already addressed this in a prior post.

Huckleberry Finn is a historical piece of work. I am pretty damned sure that the Black History Museum in DC like the Holocaust Museum in DC also depict slurs against entire groups. But not as an advocacy but a reminder of what not to do.

Saying the "n" word exists isn't the same as using it as a slur. 

But even in non hatful art such as a song, or comedy, it is still important to know time place and context. 

As Criss Rock rightfully pointed out, that I think the OP missed was, "Not really". 

Chris wasn't saying "never" but "it depends", and I take that as "don't assume".

I hate these "either/or" propositions. "We must have the legal right to always say it" isn't the argument. It always depends on knowing your audience and time place and context.

Just like you don't sell tobacco to or porn to kids.

"N" is the same as "kike" or "Krout' or " Jap" or "wetback".

If you are going to use a word in like a reporter like a history book, or documentary, that is one thing. But outside that, like art, music, comedy you still need to know your audience. 

My ex wife was Japanese. I once got into a play argument with her and responded, "Just remember we kicked your ass in WW2."  But she knew me personally and she got the context. However, one day I went to pick her up at work and a white southern draw security guard was at the back door. I asked him to page her and his response was, "Oh, you mean the Jap?"  The problem wasn't that he was a bigot, he may or may not have been. The problem if he was not a bigot is that he didn't know me personally enough to make a joke like that if he was being friendly.

That is what Chris means by, "Not really."

[arewethereyet]

I find unlikely to the point of imbecility that a 'bigoted KKK asshole' would love a rap song.

Boru

You'd think?

It is a watered down version of full bigotry, the same "some of my best friends are" or "bless their heart".

It is possible for a bigot to envy something about you, but still feel threatened by your existence. 

Much like how heterosexual homophobes will say, " I don't care that you exist, but".

If you are going to rightfully point out that many blacks say not even blacks should use the "n" word, then you should be able to understand the same thing with the word "gay"

" I support gays" isn't the same context as......

"That jacket you are wearing is so gay." (Meaning they don't like it.)

A bigot can lie to your face and pretend so it isn't as simple as anyone wants to make it.

Bless their/her/his heart is in no way racist you twit.  It is quite Southern but it's not racist.

Another of your examples that makes no sense at all.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

I find unlikely to the point of imbecility that a 'bigoted KKK asshole' would love a rap song.

Boru

You'd think?

It is a watered down version of full bigotry, the same "some of my best friends are" or "bless their heart".

It is possible for a bigot to envy something about you, but still feel threatened by your existence. 

Much like how heterosexual homophobes will say, " I don't care that you exist, but".

If you are going to rightfully point out that many blacks say not even blacks should use the "n" word, then you should be able to understand the same thing with the word "gay"

" I support gays" isn't the same context as......

"That jacket you are wearing is so gay." (Meaning they don't like it.)

A bigot can lie to your face and pretend so it isn't as simple as anyone wants to make it.

Riiiight.  KKK members are so very clever that they pretend to like rap music just so they can get away with saying the n-word.

Boru