Reason for converting Good Christians

[LukeMC]

As was mentioned already, my thread is about the good Christians in your neighbourhood which this forum had some plans to advertise Atheism to, not those in terrorist areas, so keep them out.

What's to stop them becoming terrorists? If they're allowed to read their holy book and take it seriously, they'll be far from "good christians". What you are describing is "non-christians" masquerading as christians, when really they are just cherry-pickers.

I can rebut Demonura and 8630's posts with this. Not only does the Christian god imply punishment for misdeeds, it tells us what a person who obeys god should do. Hence, just one example, love thy neighbour as thyself.

Stone homosexuals, kill non-virgin brides, etc, are more example of the teachings of their holy book.

Hence they will at least believe that God wants them to do certain good stuff.

..such as killing witches. Otherwise theyd be disobeying god.


You are REALLY missing the point. You're talking about "good christians". A good christian is somebody who believes in God and Jesus and doesn't pay attention to the bible unless it suits. How can you uphold this? You'd have to edit out the bad parts of the bible otherwise the people will realise what BS they're being fed and how their governments have lied to them.

[Demonaura]

I can see that I could have focued to much on that one aspect of things but, what about my other statment.

compared to the number of good people doing evil in the name of religion, what is the tiny ammount of bad people pretending to be good (while they remain bad people)?

theres example every day of good people doing and supporting evil and I see no real examples of bad people doing good. It does not make logical sense to me for these reasons: Bad people can know they are doing bad and still do it, thats why they are called bad people. when they do good they might still be bad people, they will not suddenly change who they are.

but religion can trick good people much easier. It causes then to do bad things thinking they are good. Religion creates us/them situations and teaches people not to think for themselves, the church knows best and it is right and if you question it you have sinned. In this way they make good people willingly do bad things thinking they are doing good. Like the gay marrage thing in California.

Many of those people have been lied to and do not beleive homosexuality exists. these people aren't gay, they are just straight people sinning and they should be forced to stop because it offends god. While in reality, gay people really are gay, and being gay is not evil. they have just been told it is by a book and are willing to destroy gay peoples free rights, human rights I would say, because of their beleifs.

So with so many people freely willing to destroy another persons right to have a partner of the same gender (and this is one example of hundreds of ways religion makes good do evil) how could it possibly force enough bad people to pretend to be good (at least until they can get away with evil again, they're still evil) to be worth it?

[DD_8630]

As was mentioned already, my thread is about the good Christians in your neighbourhood which this forum had some plans to advertise Atheism to, not those in terrorist areas, so keep them out.

"Terrorist areas"? I'm talking about Texas and the like.

"But to believe in a God that will forgive you no matter what your sins, what's that gonna do to the crime rate?
"

I can rebut Demonura and 8630's posts with this. Not only does the Christian god imply punishment for misdeeds, it tells us what a person who obeys god should do. Hence, just one example, love thy neighbour as thyself.

Yet even you must know that it is a rare Christian indeed who follows Jesus' summation of the law ("Love the Lord thy God, and love thy neighbour as thyself"). No matter what theory you postulate, the statistical data is undeniable.

Hence they will at least believe that God wants them to do certain good stuff. There is first this basic aspect. The punishment or threat is only if this aspect, what god wants, is not obeyed.

With God, there are good reasons for themselves to do good, first, God wants them to, then punishment if they dont.

Nope: one is saved by one's faith, not by ones works. That's the message the entire NT was trying to get across: no matter who you are, no matter what you've done, you will be saved if you believe.

What I had mentioned Natural selection for is that, it is so logical and natural to us. It should be Natural and logical to us that a belief in God can only lower crime rates. Any one atheists truely believe otherwise?

I'm not an atheist, but I believe otherwise. While some religions do indeed curb criminal tendencies in their followers, the Christian religion is not one of them.

[Ephrium]

Luke MC,"
Homosexual massacres
Non-virgin bride massacres
Sabbath issues
A contradictory law system
An uproar over whose misinterpretation of the bible should be accepted
The end of modern medicine (probably replaced by prayer)
Increase in demand for eye surgery (Jesus said to take your eye out if you look on a woman with lust... creepy)
Increased suicide rates (he also told people to drink poison to test their faith)
Landscaping issues (he also said if you pray for a mountain to move in his name, the mountain will move)
Okay now I'm just getting silly But these are serious issues in my opinion!"

I know you are trying to get to me is that if people are truely good Christians, they will advocate all the above you have written.

With the exception of the "interpretation of the bible", most or even almost all pastors will not advocate what you have written. They will advise you personally to read the bible within the context.



To Demonura,

Just as I see how natural, Natural selection is, where the strong and who gets to mate etc. get selected, it is as natural too to see how God can deter or at least make so called 'evil people' have second thoughts and encourage them to do good things instead aint it? Most people can see this obvious and true fact.

When you yourself say, 'evil people may do good things but still remain evil'. To me it does not really matter actually. If he has done good, why do you care about his heart? The good is done.

Gay marriage rights is the main thing you are talking about right? it is indeed a con then but you have to weight it againt the increase of bad deeds and decrease of good deeds if christianity is to decline much straightaway. Further, put it in consideration that in the past thousands of years of history of modern Mankind society Gay marriages did not formally exist anyways till the past..20 years?




To 8630:

Those who believe in God SHOULD follow his words. And I believe there is specifically a verse:

Faith, without works, is dead.

I do not know what verse it is I just know there is such a verse.

[LukeMC]

I know you are trying to get to me is that if people are truely good Christians, they will advocate all the above you have written.

With the exception of the "interpretation of the bible", most or even almost all pastors will not advocate what you have written. They will advise you personally to read the bible within the context.

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

The bible is explicitly clear. The pastors are obviously being dishonest, for they are more moral than their god (however marginally at times).

[Demonaura]

Just as I see how natural, Natural selection is, where the strong and who gets to mate etc. get selected, it is as natural too to see how God can deter or at least make so called 'evil people' have second thoughts and encourage them to do good things instead aint it? Most people can see this obvious and true fact.

If I actually beleived there was a god, I would not be forced to do HIS version of good. I would, instead try to destroy this god so that people may decide for themselves what is just and right, instead of assuming this dictator is truly good. Thus no, I still disagree that it is fats that religion creates good from evil, or even makes any real ammount of people (I'm certain theres a small ammount, an exeption to proove the rule) pretend to be good.

When you yourself say, 'evil people may do good things but still remain evil'. To me it does not really matter actually. If he has done good, why do you care about his heart? The good is done.

The good is not done, people have done the bare ammount required to avoid immediate punishment (which only a lazy god would go with, surely a god can tell that you do not really deserve heaven, your only pretending). And every chance the person gets they will do more evil, or avoid doing good unless they specifically know they will be rewarded for it. It only promotes extremes.

Gay marriage rights is the main thing you are talking about right? it is indeed a con then but you have to weight it againt the increase of bad deeds and decrease of good deeds if christianity is to decline much straightaway. Further, put it in consideration that in the past thousands of years of history of modern Mankind society Gay marriages did not formally exist anyways till the past..20 years?

But one example among many. Christianity has, and continues to cause good people to do bad things at a much higher rate that it causes bad people to pretend to be good people. And why does it matter that it's current? It should never be allowed because they didn't do it back then either? the fact is we are trying to fix this right now, and christianity supresses this. It was wrong of people to fight the black people when they fought for human rights and it's wrong for religious people to supress gays.

and I still have yet to see an example of any theistic religion causing any real ammount of bad people to act good. I can provide plenty of examples of good acting bad, the gay rights movment being supressed, The crusades and the 9/11 bombing to start.

You are claiming it's obvious that religion forces people to be good, theists claim that god is obvious. Both points require evidense and that it is obvious to you means nothing to me. I gave my examples, none of which were about one person, all of which included multiple, even hundreds of people doing evil in gods name. Where are yours?

[DD_8630]

Gay marriage rights is the main thing you are talking about right? it is indeed a con then but you have to weight it againt the increase of bad deeds and decrease of good deeds if christianity is to decline much straightaway. Further, put it in consideration that in the past thousands of years of history of modern Mankind society Gay marriages did not formally exist anyways till the past..20 years?

Err... gay marriage has existed since antiquity. It is the spread of the fervent homophobia of Abrahamic religions that turned it into the 'great sin' we have in Western culture today. Indeed, the greatest empires on Earth celebrated same-sex love.

To 8630:

Those who believe in God SHOULD follow his words. And I believe there is specifically a verse:

Faith, without works, is dead.

I do not know what verse it is I just know there is such a verse.

It's James 2:20, and he is referring to the "Ye shall know them by their fruits" thing. First, you don't need to do specific actions to be saved: you are saved regardless of what you do. Second, you can tell if someone else has been saved by the actions they do: their actions don't make them saved, but they are evidence of their salvation.

If one's works really did get one saved, then Heaven would be dominated by atheists.

[Ephrium]

To Luke MC:

As I have mentioned already, even most Pastors will tell you to read the bible within the context.



Wo Demonura:

"The good is not done, people have done the bare ammount required to avoid immediate punishment (which only a lazy god would go with, surely a god can tell that you do not really deserve heaven, your only pretending). And every chance the person gets they will do more evil, or avoid doing good unless they specifically know they will be rewarded for it. It only promotes extremes."



The bottom line? There will be more good done, even if it is a little more.

To me, what bothers me or that I am concerned about is that the 'evil' guys do less bad deeds.

Examples of people refraining from bad deeds:

Already mentioned, the many many drug addicts and crimminals who have turned their lives around because they converted to Christianity from Atheism. Google it if you want.

Examples of people doing more good deeds:

Many Orphanages, old folks homes, halfway houses built by the Churches. Given this current age and time, if Atheists had the money they are more likely to spend it on themselves.



What I have experienced in life too.


I summarise by me as well as the general opinion, because if it were not so, Atheists will not have to keep answering the question' What is there to stop an Atheist from Raping, murder, robbing etc'.

---

I have lost interest in this and may not reply much thereafter. Increase the number of crimminals in your neighbourhoods(By freeing them of God) if you want, but do not say I have not warned you.

[Demonaura]

The bottom line? There will be more good done, even if it is a little more.

So if I go kill 100 people, as long as a few of them were evil people and I did the world a service in their removal, it's worth it. What I hear from your statment is that if something does some good it is ok if it also does greater evil.

Well, everything does good in some way to some person, and everything does evil. I reject your idea that religion should be kept because it does far greater evil than it could ever do good.

I accept your individual cases of drug addicts getting over their addiction. But was it the religion that helped? I highly doubt it. I'd put money that it's actually the community, something that happens via community centers everywhere. I gave examples of large groups, I already said that a few people might be able to say religion did them good but, those people are drops in the bucket compared to the bad things it brings to society. What I was looking for was a reason to think the small good it does could possibly be worth the immense evil.

I also disagree that atheists are more likely to spend money on thelselves. Most religious groups I see help people only do so to gain followers. Sure they'll help, if you give up your ability to think for yourself and abide by their rules and regulations. and if you go against them later on, they start doing crap like telling your wife to divorce you (mormonisim).

At least when atheists help (and you will see us out there less, because theres less of us and people dont randomly donate money to atheist gatherings) we do it because we care. They don't care, they only care that you get 'saved'.

What is there to stop an Atheist from Raping, murder, robbing etc'.

This ones easy. Humans have both born-with and taught morals, we don't go around killing and raping because it's immoral. The question is 100% flawed in the fact that even if another atheist disagrees with me, atheists don't go around raping and murdering any more often than theists do. If god was required for morality we would already be immoral.

[LukeMC]

To Luke MC:

As I have mentioned already, even most Pastors will tell you to read the bible within the context.

And under what context does the stoning of non-virgins become okay? Just because a pastor says I've read it wrong, does not mean I have read it wrong. It states it very clearly O_o
How far backwards will you have to bend to justify the stonings?