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By chance?
RE: By chance?
(February 18, 2020 at 9:54 pm)Yukon_Jack Wrote: “What you're neglecting to notice is the trillions upon trillions of mutations that occur and get weeded out by natural selection”

So we’re there billions and billions of giraffes in the making to choose from trillions of mutations? Really now

No, there didn’t need to be. And giraffes (or any organism) doesn’t ‘choose’ which mutations to keep.

Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
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RE: By chance?
(February 18, 2020 at 7:14 pm)Yukon_Jack Wrote: So it sounds like someone here believes that due to happenstance that mutations occur, all the ones that were needed DID occur. What a perfect world!

You are tacitly assuming that there was a goal.  There wasn't.  We have what we have because that's what happened and survived to reproduce.

Quote:For that giraffe to be able to sustain and take advantage of his long neck, a myriad of previous lucky mutations fell right into place.
Who’s that gullible.

Natural selection - try to understand the words.  Giraffes with slightly longer necks had slightly more access to food, and slightly more chance to survive and reproduce.
Genes that resulted longer necks became more prevalent in the gene pool.  That's how it works.

Quote:As for protein production and the sheer magnitude of odds needed to be overcome for just one to come into existence ....
Assume only 200 proteins are needed for life (it is up to 387 plus RNA entities)
Good luck!!!

Creatures don't "come into existence" all at once - it is step-wise, a little at a time.

Pro tip: Read a science book.
Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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RE: By chance?
I get a headache trying to think down to his level!
The meek shall inherit the Earth, the rest of us will fly to the stars.

Never underestimate the power of very stupid people in large groups

Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in mud ..... after a while you realise that the pig likes it!

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RE: By chance?
(February 18, 2020 at 7:14 pm)Yukon_Jack Wrote: So it sounds like someone here believes that due to happenstance that mutations occur, all the ones that were needed DID occur. What a perfect world!

For that giraffe to be able to sustain and take advantage of his long neck, a myriad of previous lucky mutations fell right into place.
Who’s that gullible.

The point is, and I did mention, that mutation is random and doesn't always benefit the organism itself - 

Using the Giraffe example, some would have not had this mutation thus died [in the long run] as a result. Those that lived on where able to pass on this newly mutated genetic mutation. Others would have mostly likely had random mutations that didn't help at all - shorter necks, shorter legs, no camouflage etc and so forth. 

The same applies for all organisms, mutations DO happen - you can see this when experimenting upon insects that reproduce quickly [Many university students provide constant study to this as well as fully qualified scientists] - they are not always beneficial to the species itself. We only really see the "positive" results as all other organisms that haven't had this random mutation or have an inverse mutation of their own die as a result, leaving only the ones who have adapted to live on and produce offspring that will pass on this mutation. 

Again this accounts for all organisms: animals, birds, fish, plants etc. The giraffe is just a fairly simple example of not only the animal itself showing it's mutations over generations, but it's food source as well - which demonstrates that those that don't adapt die off, and those that do pass on this information genetically to the next generation where it continuously rolls on. 

Just because you say "LOL NOPE" doesn't mean the evidence isn't already available for you to look at. I literally learned this example in my high school biology class, because it's one of the easiest ways to demonstrate evolution as a concept to children. 

I would 100% take this, which includes actual evidence [The fossil record, recorded history of human beings, and the agreement of the overall scientific community which outright strives to find the flaws in any argument to prove it wrong essentially] over what I presume you think happened, which is some deity sat in their garage with a soldering iron just plumbing bits together for a laugh. 

I think this is the thing you don't really understand, things happening by overall chance is much more logical that them being created "As-is" because it implies the creator has to know how everything on the inside works. Take Human beings - we swallow food, into various tubes > the stomach > the intestines etc etc. That is crazy complex, but surely if a god just "poofed" us into existance itd would be "food goes in and magic happens" and if not, God would have to know litterally how everything would work/happen accordingly, installing kidneys to create waste fluids etc - The overall GRADUAL changing of things to benefit a species as whole sounds much more plausable that "right, here you go, people some trees, grass and this duck" *poof*
"Be Excellent To Each Other"
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RE: By chance?
Presumably, a god that knows how everything works wouldn't need to tinker with it's system at all. It would know exactly how evolution would proceed, on it's own, from any potential combination of initial factors and subsequent circumstances, leading to the emergence of endless forms most beautiful.

Presumably, a god that knows how everything works wouldn't need to stir the pot of organic chemistry, either. It would know exactly how chemical evolution would proceed, on it's own, from any potential combination of initial factors and subsequent circumstances, leading to the emergence of life.

There is absolutely nothing about tinker-god that offers any explanatory information, and the concept seriously calls into question the competence of the divine. Those that wed their god to this belief are choosing the hill they want their god to die on.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: By chance?
(February 19, 2020 at 9:07 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Presumably, a god that knows how everything works wouldn't need to tinker with it's system at all.  It would know exactly how evolution would proceed, on it's own, from any potential combination of initial factors and subsequent circumstances, leading to the emergence of endless forms most beautiful.

Presumably, a god that knows how everything works wouldn't need to stir the pot of organic chemistry, either.  It would know exactly how chemical evolution would proceed, on it's own, from any potential combination of initial factors and subsequent circumstances, leading to the emergence of life.

There is absolutely nothing about tinker-god that offers any explanatory information, and the concept seriously calls into question the competence of the divine.  Those that wed their god to this belief are choosing the hill they want their god to die on.
It's all about jackie's feels

(February 19, 2020 at 9:01 am)OakTree500 Wrote:
(February 18, 2020 at 7:14 pm)Yukon_Jack Wrote: So it sounds like someone here believes that due to happenstance that mutations occur, all the ones that were needed DID occur. What a perfect world!

For that giraffe to be able to sustain and take advantage of his long neck, a myriad of previous lucky mutations fell right into place.
Who’s that gullible.

The point is, and I did mention, that mutation is random and doesn't always benefit the organism itself - 

Using the Giraffe example, some would have not had this mutation thus died [in the long run] as a result. Those that lived on where able to pass on this newly mutated genetic mutation. Others would have mostly likely had random mutations that didn't help at all - shorter necks, shorter legs, no camouflage etc and so forth. 

The same applies for all organisms, mutations DO happen - you can see this when experimenting upon insects that reproduce quickly [Many university students provide constant study to this as well as fully qualified scientists] - they are not always beneficial to the species itself. We only really see the "positive" results as all other organisms that haven't had this random mutation or have an inverse mutation of their own die as a result, leaving only the ones who have adapted to live on and produce offspring that will pass on this mutation. 

Again this accounts for all organisms: animals, birds, fish, plants etc. The giraffe is just a fairly simple example of not only the animal itself showing it's mutations over generations, but it's food source as well - which demonstrates that those that don't adapt die off, and those that do pass on this information genetically to the next generation where it continuously rolls on. 

Just because you say "LOL NOPE" doesn't mean the evidence isn't already available for you to look at. I literally learned this example in my high school biology class, because it's one of the easiest ways to demonstrate evolution as a concept to children. 

I would 100% take this, which includes actual evidence [The fossil record, recorded history of human beings, and the agreement of the overall scientific community which outright strives to find the flaws in any argument to prove it wrong essentially] over what I presume you think happened, which is some deity sat in their garage with a soldering iron just plumbing bits together for a laugh. 

I think this is the thing you don't really understand, things happening by overall chance is much more logical that them being created "As-is" because it implies the creator has to know how everything on the inside works. Take Human beings - we swallow food, into various tubes > the stomach > the intestines etc etc. That is crazy complex, but surely if a god just "poofed" us into existance itd would be "food goes in and magic happens" and if not, God would have to know litterally how everything would work/happen accordingly, installing kidneys to create waste fluids etc - The overall GRADUAL changing of things to benefit a species as whole sounds much more plausable that "right, here you go, people some trees, grass and this duck" *poof*
But Oak his personal sense of  credulity is the only thing that matters  Dodgy

(February 19, 2020 at 4:59 am)zebo-the-fat Wrote: I get a headache trying to think down to his level!
Which is 


[Image: amoebaproteus450.jpg]
"Change was inevitable"


Nemo sicut deus debet esse!

[Image: Canada_Flag.jpg?v=1646203843]



 “No matter what men think, abortion is a fact of life. Women have always had them; they always have and they always will. Are they going to have good ones or bad ones? Will the good ones be reserved for the rich, while the poor women go to quacks?”
–SHIRLEY CHISHOLM


      
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RE: By chance?
(February 18, 2020 at 9:54 pm)Yukon_Jack Wrote: “What you're neglecting to notice is the trillions upon trillions of mutations that occur and get weeded out by natural selection”

So we’re there billions and billions of giraffes in the making to choose from trillions of mutations? Really now

To any educated person in Biology you are saying that you know next to nothing about it, but you feel that you can have an opinion about it.

Here is something for you to learn: if you want to be taken seriously about any subject, at least learn what you are talking about.

The bilions of ancesters of the modern giraffes that had mutations that didn't help or were detrimental to living in their environment, died, without been able to pass their "bad" mutation onto progeny. Natural selection.

If you can't grasp this simple concept, why are you here? The ignorant bile you spew works great with the sheep in a church.
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RE: By chance?
(February 19, 2020 at 2:32 am)Chas Wrote:
(February 18, 2020 at 7:14 pm)Yukon_Jack Wrote: So it sounds like someone here believes that due to happenstance that mutations occur, all the ones that were needed DID occur. What a perfect world!

You are tacitly assuming that there was a goal.  There wasn't.  We have what we have because that's what happened and survived to reproduce.

Quote:For that giraffe to be able to sustain and take advantage of his long neck, a myriad of previous lucky mutations fell right into place.
Who’s that gullible.

Natural selection - try to understand the words.  Giraffes with slightly longer necks had slightly more access to food, and slightly more chance to survive and reproduce.
Genes that resulted longer necks became more prevalent in the gene pool.  That's how it works.

Quote:As for protein production and the sheer magnitude of odds needed to be overcome for just one to come into existence ....
Assume only 200 proteins are needed for life (it is up to 387 plus RNA entities)
Good luck!!!

Creatures don't "come into existence" all at once - it is step-wise, a little at a time.

Pro tip: Read a science book.
Oh but Mr Chas he understands evolution way better then all those scientists.Because he reads some creationist blogs .Can't wait for his nobel prize  Dodgy
"Change was inevitable"


Nemo sicut deus debet esse!

[Image: Canada_Flag.jpg?v=1646203843]



 “No matter what men think, abortion is a fact of life. Women have always had them; they always have and they always will. Are they going to have good ones or bad ones? Will the good ones be reserved for the rich, while the poor women go to quacks?”
–SHIRLEY CHISHOLM


      
Reply
RE: By chance?
(February 19, 2020 at 9:18 am)SUNGULA Wrote: Which is 


[Image: amoebaproteus450.jpg]

Oh camon man, no need to insult amoebas like that... Big Grin
Reply
RE: By chance?
As the wingers like to say, fuck his feelings.

I'm just surprised that believers imagine a god that's even less competent than I am. Even I don't need to tinker - it would be a monumental waste of my time, if nothing else, since biology works whether I intervene or not. There's no need for me to cast my spirit into the ethereal plane to work some meat magic on an onions supernatural genetic levers. The fucking things will grow and breed and change all by their one-sies.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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