By chance?

[OakTree500]

I apologise for the Giraffe analogy - I thought it was simple to comprehend, but transparently not for Jack.

Again, it's an example - but as you said:

"Im talking the near ancestors of giraffe, a normal sized mammal, w no long neck, no advanced circulatory system , no heart capability for hard pumping, no supporting musculature system. At this point you’re going to need a miracle sequence of mutations to complete the giraffe. Who feels lucky for those particular mutations to take place?"

We're not saying, one day there was one that was what you see today. The changes in evolution are tiny, and take millions of years to reach it's end goal. The rate at which any of these changes happened would have been miniscule to the naked eye, but they did happen [See Mister Agenda's link for the information].

For example, based upon the "giraffe is short in the beginning" idea:

The tree grows, Giraffes can eat it, lots of those plants die, thus not living longer etc

During all of this, random mutation is happening all the time - Some of them not helping. One maybe grew shorter, one maybe grew more leaves, either way it wasn't beneficial to helping the plant survive. Then some of those plants grow taller, lets say an inch for arguments sake. Some giraffes can still eat it, but others which were an inch too small even before this happened now cannot - they feed off of the smaller trees still, until they no longer can live [over the course of hundreds/thousands/millions of years] and die out, leaving only the larger ones to continue to populate/pass on their natural mutation in their genes.

And the cycle is just "rinse and repeat" for the next million odd years until we come to what you see today. It's not just necks, it's the whole shebang. Some were probably born with longer necks they couldn't support, but some survived who could do that, and passed on that mutation. It's a very long process, in larger animals that live longer at the very least, so it takes very small changes over millions of years to coincidentally come together for the "right" ones, where as every other animal will die off, also for the same purely coincidental reasons.

Again this can be physically seen in various insects that live/die very quickly.

[LastPoet]

Im talking the near ancestors of giraffe, a normal sized mammal, w no long neck, no advanced circulatory system , no heart capability for hard pumping, no supporting  musculature system. At this point you’re going to need a miracle sequence of mutations to complete the giraffe. Who feels lucky for those particular mutations to take place?

You again display ignorance about what you talk about. Your idea of evolution seems to be derived of pokemon, e.g. a being suddenly tansforms into another. Plain wrong. In beings with less reproductive rates like giraffes, even humans, it takes milions of years of cumulative cycles of mutations and natural selection. Many beings that do not fit are selected out, i.e. dead.

You only seem interested in parroting old creationist arguments and you don't even try to understand why you are wrong, simply because your lack of knowlege and the obvious bias to confirm your religious beliefs.

The reason people reply to you is a gesture of kindness and the hope there are others reading this thread oh not so vaunted to remain in darkness.

[zebo-the-fat]

Lets assume that there is an "intelegent designer" .... who designed him/her/it??

[LastPoet]

Lets assume that there is an "intelegent designer" .... who designed him/her/it??

Lets just say he/she/it would be perfect for the front row of a Roman army. Alas, these days we have ethics and medicine from hard gathered knowledge, that yukon so deeply denies.

[Yukon_Jack]

“We're still looking at an extant creature and marveling that the requirements of it's existence must have happened..but we know that they must have, because here they are. ”

That pondering tells you nothing about it’s origins. My point stands that evolutionary theory is based on sheer luck

It's based on the idea that an organism's reproductive fitness sifts out mutations that are detrimental to reproductive fitness and conserves mutations that are beneficial to an organism's reproductive fitness, causing them to become more frequent in the population of that species. Calling that sheer luck is like saying it's random chance that sediment settles into such orderly layers. Mutations are somewhat random, the 'sifting process' turns that randomness into order.

The fitness evolution theory has been cited ad nauseum here, but NS is powerless w out lucky mutations. You do understand that right? I’ve said it too many times. If you ended up with a lamp and a bulb ; the bulb having mutated into existence and it works in the lamp, NS could DO NOTHING if you got an Oreo cookie instead of the bulb. POWERLESS
, it’s the luck of the bulb, If you can’t get your head around this, then you continue down the Nile River ~~~~

[The Grand Nudger]

Natural selection also impacts clones, Jack. It doesn't need any mutations to do it's thing, though they're obviously helpful when it comes to producing novel forms.

[Yukon_Jack]

No, it's based on organic chemistry, but that doesn't matter, because whatever Luck™ was required..we obviously had that luck..here we are.

Let's put a pin in something so we don't have to wonder. Are you an intelligent design advocate, or do you favor creation ex nihilo....because if you believe in intelligent design...you think it happened exactly the same way that I do.

The only difference is that you believe a god was involved, whereas I can barely contain my laughter when I think about you believing as much.

What intelligence would you reckon is responsible?

[The Grand Nudger]

None, again, that's the only difference between us. You believe that one is, I know that one isn't.

You think that this intelligence has somehow used biological processes, which work, for effect. I simply note that the biological processes work regardless of whether there is or was a tinker, and that the tinker could have only used them if they did, in fact, work...to begin with.

I do it all the time, but it happens without me as well. I like breeding plants...but those dirty hookers absolutely will fuck with or without me. They will be subject to selection, even if it's not me making the selections. It all works. I would expect you to agree.....because you believe in intelligently designed giraffes, not giraffes created ex nihilo.

Correct?

[arewethereyet]

Lovely progress being made in this thread...reminds me of a song...

'Will It Go 'Round It Circles?'

[downbeatplumb]

The fitness evolution theory has been cited  ad nauseum here, but NS is powerless w out lucky mutations. You do understand that right? I’ve said it too many times. If you ended up with a lamp and a bulb ; the bulb having mutated into existence and it works in the lamp, NS could DO NOTHING if you got an Oreo cookie instead of the bulb. POWERLESS
, it’s the luck of the bulb, If you can’t get your head around this, then you continue down the Nile River ~~~~

What you are missing is nature that part of an eye is useful, (as you have been told)

and also that evolution can repurpose things, such as fishes jaw bones now form part of the inner ear of humans.