Kobe Bryant dead from Helicopter crash

[Mr.wizard]

Sure, but again, for Athene, this conversation serves to validate her specific concerns. If the good non racist whites respond in the manner that she expects, which is useful to white supremacy - then her point has been made.

But the objections are not to her concerns about white supremacy, I think Shell and I have both acknowledged her points about white supremacy, the issue is about arguing against the supposed opinions of white people rather than just talking about the opinions of the people she is speaking with. This thread is a perfect example, Kobe's rape allegation was brought up and I thought he did rape the girl and that somehow has spiraled into a thread about white supremacy in america.

[The Grand Nudger]

Inevitable, lol. I can only suggest that you read post 152.

[Athene]

Sure, but again, for Athene, this conversation serves to validate her specific concerns.  If the good non racist whites respond in the manner that she expects, which is useful to white supremacy - then her point has been made.

But the objections are not to her concerns about white supremacy, I think Shell and I have both acknowledged her points about white supremacy, the issue is about arguing against the supposed opinions of white people rather than just talking about the opinions of the people she is speaking with. This thread is a perfect example,  Kobe's rape allegation was brought up and I thought he did rape the girl and that somehow has spiraled into a thread about white supremacy in america.

What you and Shell actually found insulting was the statement in which I said I believe the number of Whites with the determination and will to hunker down and substantively fight systemic oppression towards Blacks is actually quite small. For all practical intents and purposes, it's true; We're on our own.
When considering the White Trumpican majority and the well-conditioned complicity of White Not-Racists, there's no good reason for Black people to continue to delude themselves into thinking otherwise.

And if you'll recall, I gave a clear shout-out to the magnificent unicorns out there who actually do possess the will and the consciousness to confront WS with with the same urgency that Black folks do.
Lol...There was no reason you shouldn't have assumed that I believed you might actually be one of them until....well...this latest stuff from you.
To my recollection, all or most of my commentary on the Bryant case in this thread was to limited to discussing the evidence. And I know damn well that I didn't accuse anyone in here of being racist just because they disagreed with my assessment of it. I'm pretty sure Huggy didn't either. 
He was simply discussing how WS media coverage and social conditioning stands to shape our perceptions and offered a critique on this country's two-tiered approach to justice; Relevant to the thread topic considering that much of America was having the very same discussions after Kobe died.

[The Grand Nudger]

I think he got it wrong when he decided Kobe was a victim of ws, rather than a beneficiary, in this case. The tier of justice that kobe availed himself of isn't exactly the one available to some kid in the projects, or even the suburban minority.

[Mr.wizard]

Okay I found a lot wrong in what you said there but i'm not really interested in having a " he said this" and " you said that battle" so I will attempt to move the conversation forward. So the question is how do you know that most white people would not fight against systemic racism and how would most white people fight against systemic racism?

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I think he got it wrong when he decided Kobe was a victim of ws, rather than a beneficiary, in this case. The tier of justice that kobe availed himself of isn't exactly the one available to some kid in the projects, or even the suburban minority.

I agree and the same media coverage he is complaining was unfair to Kobe turned him into an international icon.

[Shell B]

Nowhere in that post did I state that I don't think it's possible that there are White people are aren't racist. 
If you'd read it sans the knee-jerk hysteria, perhaps might have noticed that what I was actually doing was detailing some of the additional reasons why I think the majority of Whites aren't particularly moved to seek racial equality---none of which necessitate racist intent.

Even your choice of phrasing makes it clear that this can't be a calm, rational discussion. You're accusing me of being hysterical, but I've only ever posted while perfectly calm in this thread. I'm not moved to any emotion other than minor annoyance by your disdain for white people. I completely understand that you could, and probably do, have reasons for feeling that way. It just tickles when people think they know me based on the color of my skin.

I'll tell you why I personally find your approach to racial injustice problematic: It's practically rampant with you bemoaning not receiving due and just adulation for your "enlightenment", denialism, derailing dialogue with paranoid claims of being personally attacked, submitting endless caveats in which you dictate is to be discussed, what history you think is or isn't relevant, and redefining and ultimately downplaying White Supremacy by attempting to manipulate others approaching terms that make you feel that make you feel less "icky" and stressed.

I asked for adulation? I called myself enlightened? I denied something and claimed to be personally attacked? You throw around the word hysteria, but your posts are nearly always over the top for no other apparent reason than for the sake of being extra. No one tried to downplay white supremacy. You imagine whitey's out to get you, and I can assure that most of us couldn't be bothered or would actively take your side when you're a victim of racism. I must live in a different world from you, which I wouldn't find surprising, given I live in the liberal capital of the U.S.

Guilt by association by virtue of having of White skin is not why I regard folks like you as such sketchy allies; It's your unironic complicity with WS, unintentional though it may be.

That's a big fat assumption right there that you made either based on a handful of posts or the color of my skin. You're asserting that I'm complicit with white supremacy, and I don't think it's because of anything other than that I'm white and you can't imagine I'd do otherwise.

It demands that people give deference to your fragility and "go easy" on White Supremacy so as to spare you unpleasant feelings, when people's lives are on the line.

I've made no demands, and I see no one's lives threatened in this thread. You being a touch more sensitive to your own preconceived notions of whiteness doesn't put anyone in danger, other than you . . . of maybe realizing we're mostly modern liberals who are trying to oust the same assholes who are keeping racial disparities alive and well in the U.S. Moreover, where have I said to go easy on white supremacy? I believe people should do the opposite. What I think you should go easy on is the casual stereotyping that you seem to think is okay because we're white.

You keep referring to us as potential allies, but maybe you're failing to see that we're neither ally nor enemy. We're just people who don't care if you're black, who don't want more or less than you and hate the same system you hate. I don't want any adulation for that. Shit, I don't even want to have to talk about it, but if you're going to talk about people as a group, as if they all are the same person, expect those people to have an opinion. I'm white. I'm obviously going to have an opinion when you go, "White people this. White people that." If I came in here casting aspersions on black folk, I would damn well expect you to do the same.

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It isn't impossible to get an impression of what white people think.  We're a vocal bunch with pretty much every media outlet devoted to covering our various opinions.

The very idea that "white people" think the same way is dumb as shit.

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Athene can only have her opinions validated when, in speaking of how a person can be useful to white supremacy without intentionally meaning to be - this results in a sense of personal insult and condemnation which expresses itself as a reflexive counter accusation of racism.  In this case, she can't talk about a reality of how white supremacy operates in the world and where it draws it's warrant, cover, and innumerable other goods.  The good non racist whites have shut that down as personally insulting to them.   I suppose it should be, but maybe we should be personally insulted by how the white supremacists are using us, rather than being angry at the person who pointed out that and how they are using us?

She could. Without blanket statements, these sorts of conversations don't collapse into pseudo-racist tirades. It's simple.

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Sure, but again, for Athene, this conversation serves to validate her specific concerns.  If the good non racist whites respond in the manner that she expects, which is useful to white supremacy - then her point has been made.

Only because she sets it up that way.

There isn't a single, solitary thing wrong with asking people not to stereotype you in a serious conversation. That it's even suggested that we should just take it because saying otherwise makes us "bad whites" is fucking stupid.

[Shell B]

Sure, but again, for Athene, this conversation serves to validate her specific concerns.  If the good non racist whites respond in the manner that she expects, which is useful to white supremacy - then her point has been made.

But the objections are not to her concerns about white supremacy, I think Shell and I have both acknowledged her points about white supremacy, the issue is about arguing against the supposed opinions of white people rather than just talking about the opinions of the people she is speaking with. This thread is a perfect example,  Kobe's rape allegation was brought up and I thought he did rape the girl and that somehow has spiraled into a thread about white supremacy in america.

The very first person in this thread who outright said Kobe did it is a black woman. Yet, here we are, acting like the whites were out to get Kobe and we're all secret racists at best.

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And finally . . . my original post about this topic wasn't directed at Athene at all. It was directed at Huggy, who is extremely racially biased. My objections weren't to your statements, Athene. They were to Huggy's statements, and then your defense of them. So, when you reference the post that bothered me, you're incorrect. It's Huggy's repeated behavior that bothered me and upon which I made my statement. I then carried on the conversation with you because you seemed to have an opinion about the post I made regarding Huggy.

[The Grand Nudger]

Athenes point seems, to me, to be about Good Whites™, Shell.  Not Bad Whites™.  That's probably worse, right?  Obviously a racist is going to do racist shit, but Athene (and every human being with two brain cells to rub together) knows that a racist is going to do racist shit - it's the Good Whites™...the non racists, she mentioned not counting on, and why.

Obviously she's in a better position to tell it - I'm just piping in to say that there is probably more agreement than disagreement here, and charitably, you can both assume that she counts you as the Good Whites™....even if she still isn't going to put her chips on you doing much with regards to ws.

[Athene]

Swhoosh!--right over Shell's head. 
Again.

Not surprising, in considering that most Americans don't have a grasp on how encompassing White Supremacy is or how it functions; And I simply do not expect that people can effectively fight that which they do not understand.

It is what it is, and I said what I said.

[Shell B]

Well, that was lazy.