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RE: Telling children that they are going to hell is abusive?
February 6, 2020 at 1:59 pm
(February 6, 2020 at 3:42 am)Peebo-Thuhlu Wrote: At work.
Hello ColdComfort and welcome to the forums. Sorry if I missed your intro thread.
So..... what might be this 'Evidence' of which you speak?
Cheers.
I'm not really new. It's just been a while and I lose patience with most of you guys so I don't post very often or check in to read.. If your question implies what my dear friend Fake is saying, that there is no evidence, then you are intellectually negligent. See. I lose patience even though your post was perfectly polite.
In criminal trials judges instruct juries to consider all the evidence so to answer your question would require a very long post. But to zero in on one specific point: Often you read ' most biblical scholars say...' at which point the eyes roll back in my head. I'm in my sixties and the number of different historical Jesus's this tribe has come up with makes a very long list. That should give anyone pause instead of accepting what is being said by these professors in the same manner as Catholics accept what is said by Popes speaking ex cathedra. And they almost always state their conclusions with such certainty even though the conclusions change as often as they change their underwear.
To be more specific: Most biblical scholars will tell you that the synoptics were written by anonymous Christians and the names of apostles or apostolic men were added in the second century. I don't believe a word of it and I find the arguments surprisingly weak. I accept the evidence of Papias, Iraneaus the Muratorian canon and other early Christian writings. So St. Mark was the secretary of St. Peter, St. Luke the companion of St. Paul, and St Matthew an apostle. It's an important point and one you should think about for yourself rather than just repeating the conclusions of biblical scholars especially as those conclusions change so often.
In any event, it's evidence to be considered. To say there is none or to ask a question that implies you're not aware of any just won't do.
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RE: Telling children that they are going to hell is abusive?
February 6, 2020 at 2:32 pm
(This post was last modified: February 6, 2020 at 2:34 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Bart Ehrman studies the development of a religious narrative. A story. He has no evidence for hell, he wouldn't know how to go about finding evidence for a hell, he isn't in the business of discovering alternate dimensions.
If you're personally aware of any evidence for hell, then it would be on you to lay out what that evidence is. Someone directly asked you for it, and I don't see any, up above. Would you like to try again, to clarify what this evidence for hell is supposed to be?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Telling children that they are going to hell is abusive?
February 6, 2020 at 3:07 pm
(February 6, 2020 at 12:52 pm)ColdComfort Wrote: You are wrong. I'm in a take no prisoners mood...
Wait, what? 28 years ago the doctrine was to love your neighbour. Losing the war to islam, Isuppose.
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RE: Telling children that they are going to hell is abusive?
February 6, 2020 at 3:27 pm
(February 6, 2020 at 3:07 pm)LastPoet Wrote: (February 6, 2020 at 12:52 pm)ColdComfort Wrote: You are wrong. I'm in a take no prisoners mood...
Wait, what? 28 years ago the doctrine was to love your neighbour. Losing the war to islam, Isuppose.
Cruel to be kind. Or I've adopted the enemy's weapons. Or I'm a lousy Christian with no patience for BS. Take your pick.
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RE: Telling children that they are going to hell is abusive?
February 6, 2020 at 3:28 pm
There went another opportunity to post whatever evidence you have for hell.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Telling children that they are going to hell is abusive?
February 6, 2020 at 3:49 pm
(This post was last modified: February 6, 2020 at 4:05 pm by ColdComfort.)
(February 6, 2020 at 2:32 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: Bart Ehrman studies the development of a religious narrative. A story. He has no evidence for hell, he wouldn't know how to go about finding evidence for a hell, he isn't in the business of discovering alternate dimensions.
If you're personally aware of any evidence for hell, then it would be on you to lay out what that evidence is. Someone directly asked you for it, and I don't see any, up above. Would you like to try again, to clarify what this evidence for hell is supposed to be?
You are being intentionally dishonest. Or just not very smart. Perhaps a bit of both. Calling the NT a story with no truth to it is a conclusion from the evidence that you have made not evidence itself. Like a verdict of guilty or not guilty after hearing the evidence. The verdict is not evidence and verdicts from juries are sometimes wrong. As we are on the topic of Mr. Erhman he started his scholarly career accepting the truth of the NT. So at that point in his life he had evidence of hell but later he didn't? He studied with one of the great biblical scholars of the day in Bruce Metzger who lived and died a Christian.
Are you suggesting there are no scholars who do not accept the truth of Scripture? You must know that to be untrue which is why I do not hesitate to say you are debating in a dishonest manner or just can't grasp a very simple point.
(February 6, 2020 at 3:27 pm)ColdComfort Wrote: (February 6, 2020 at 3:07 pm)LastPoet Wrote: Wait, what? 28 years ago the doctrine was to love your neighbour. Losing the war to islam, Isuppose.
Cruel to be kind. Or I've adopted the enemy's weapons. Or I'm a lousy Christian with no patience for BS. Take your pick.
(February 6, 2020 at 3:28 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: There went another opportunity to post whatever evidence you have for hell.
That is untrue. Again what you post is untrue. I have given two examples of evidence of the existence of hell. Scripture and the message of Fatima. Both are evidence you may reject. But quite frankly your inability to grasp simple points leads me not to put much value on whatever conclusions you may have.
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RE: Telling children that they are going to hell is abusive?
February 6, 2020 at 4:21 pm
(This post was last modified: February 6, 2020 at 4:22 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
The new testament is a story, regardless of whatever else you might believe it is. Bart Ehrman studies how that story came to be the way it is as we have it. He believes the story. That Bart Ehrman believes a story that he studies is in no way evidence for hell. It is completely irrelevant how many new testament scholars believe in hell. No one doubts that there are people who believe in hell.
I'm not sure what evidentiary value scripture or fatima is supposed to represent, but here again you could clarify.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Telling children that they are going to hell is abusive?
February 6, 2020 at 4:23 pm
(February 6, 2020 at 12:52 pm)ColdComfort Wrote: You are being intentionally dishonest.
You are being dishonest because you are using logical fallacies. Like this:
Quote:Or just not very smart. Perhaps a bit of both.
Ad Hominem fallacy.
Then this
Quote:Calling the NT a story with no truth to it is a conclusion from the evidence that you have made not evidence itself. Like a verdict of guilty or not guilty after hearing the evidence. The verdict is not evidence and verdicts from juries are sometimes wrong.
Logical fallacy of Avoiding the Issue and changing topic.
Then
Quote:Mr. Erhman he started his scholarly career accepting the truth of the NT. So at that point in his life he had evidence of hell but later he didn't? He studied with one of the great biblical scholars of the day in Bruce Metzger who lived and died a Christian.
Argument from authority logical fallacy and you don't even know that his name is Ehrman.
(February 6, 2020 at 12:52 pm)ColdComfort Wrote: You are wrong. I'm in a take no prisoners mood so I'm not going to give you a break by saying you misunderstood my post. Bart does have evidence for the existence of hell. He's a biblical scholar. If he, after considering the evidence which you claim does not exist, concludes there is no hell that is another matter. You must get the drift. It's not a difficult point I'm making.
And to continue with the in your face attitude: Our Lady appeared to three humble peasant children at Fatima. She showed them hell and spoke of it to them. The claim is evidence. Get it? After reading a lot of the evidence that is readily available to anyone these days I am convinced that the claim is true. If it is true that that the Mother of Jesus appeared to people at Lourdes, Fatima and elsewhere then your atheism disappears in dust. But you have to examine the evidence with an open mind, don't you? You can't even get to the simple and indisputable point of admitting that there is any evidence.
Yeah Bart has so much evidence that you had to quickly change the topic to some ramble about Fatima and Lourdes and Ad Hominem attack.
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
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RE: Telling children that they are going to hell is abusive?
February 6, 2020 at 4:29 pm
(February 6, 2020 at 3:27 pm)ColdComfort Wrote: (February 6, 2020 at 3:07 pm)LastPoet Wrote: Wait, what? 28 years ago the doctrine was to love your neighbour. Losing the war to islam, Isuppose.
Cruel to be kind. Or I've adopted the enemy's weapons. Or I'm a lousy Christian with no patience for BS. Take your pick.
You are definately the archetype of your religion, either way.
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RE: Telling children that they are going to hell is abusive?
February 6, 2020 at 4:59 pm
(February 6, 2020 at 4:29 pm)LastPoet Wrote: (February 6, 2020 at 3:27 pm)ColdComfort Wrote: Cruel to be kind. Or I've adopted the enemy's weapons. Or I'm a lousy Christian with no patience for BS. Take your pick.
You are definately the archetype of your religion, either way.
I've never heard that being nice in debate is a Christian virtue. Especially among sarcastic atheists who have an animus towards the truth.
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