Another reason I hate Ayn Rand.....

[Shell B]

Ayn Rand  argued slaughtering the native americans was a good thing .Because it was a rejection of primitivism.

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I never saw the draw.

Writers really shouldn't be looked to for ideology. It's all either an effort to entertain you or stir you up however we want to. We're not to be trusted.

They should be when they make there ideology the center piece of their book and they make it politically prescriptive

Just because she wrote it that way doesn't mean people should treat her work like its own ideology. She's just a writer.

[The Architect Of Fate]

Ayn Rand  argued slaughtering the native americans was a good thing .Because it was a rejection of primitivism.

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They should be when they make there ideology the center piece of their book and they make it politically prescriptive

Just because she wrote it that way doesn't mean people should treat her work like it's own ideology. She's just a writer.

Ayn Rand was not just a writer she fancied herself a  philosopher and put her own  political philosophy as the center point of her novels .Her plots and her characters were allegories and idealizations of her invented objectivist philosophy, And were always intended as such .

[no one]

This guy:
She was an inspiration for 2112, she can't be all that bad.

Rev. Rye:
Yeah, at least 2112 works better as a story than Anthem. And it’s at least tighter-plotted.

2112 is the greatest song in the history of history, performed by the greatest band in history.

[Shell B]

Just because she wrote it that way doesn't mean people should treat her work like it's own ideology. She's just a writer.

Ayn Rand was not just a writer she fancied herself a  philosopher and put her own  political philosophy as the center point of her novels .Her plots and her characters were allegories and idealizations of her invented objectivist philosophy, And were always intended as such .

Yeah, but we never had to take it seriously.

[The Architect Of Fate]

Ayn Rand was not just a writer she fancied herself a  philosopher and put her own  political philosophy as the center point of her novels .Her plots and her characters were allegories and idealizations of her invented objectivist philosophy, And were always intended as such .

Yeah, but we never had to take it seriously.

But there are people in American who do and they are not insignificant

[EgoDeath]

Ayn Rand ultimately made the stupid fucking argument that "greed was good".

Well, depending on how one views the word greed, and the connotations that come along with it, greed can be very ugly or quite amazing. If greed is "an insatiable longing for material gain," then many great people have been borne of greed. Without greed, or jealousy, would people strive to be better than the composer, or woodworker, or painter, or poet or warrior, in the next town over? I think greed can motivate people to strive for greatness, because they want more, they need more, they have to be better and accomplish more. If we look at greed in this way, greed can be pretty fucking awesome.

So, I agree, in that sense, that greed is good!

Where greed gets really ugly is when there are billionaires sitting on piles of cash; ofttimes billionaires who were born into money, and never really worked hard a day in their life (guys who were just taught by their parents and mentors alike to move money they inherited around in ways that allow them to never have to work), who have this hunger for more that will go on and on, even if they have to fuck over, directly or indirectly, lower to middle class people, or even rich people who are not as rich as them. That's when it gets to be fucked up.

As with anything, there's more than one side to the story. I think greed can cause talented people to strive for greatness, and it also can cause rich assholes to destroy the world around them in pursuit of being richer and more powerful.

However, given how much we benefit from the accomplishments of great women and men, I'd probably say I too think that greed is good. But it's quite a simplistic representation of an idea that can be quite complex, no?

We're taught today that "materialism" and "greed" are dirty words, but I suspect this thinking to be remnants of the religious. Nothing, in reality, is wrong with greed or materialism, but rather how they're used.

So, overall, greed is a good driving force in the world, but it can also be a very ugly thing. Both truths can exist.

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I don't have much else to say about what you wrote.

I own a copy of Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal, by Ayn Rand, and I plan to buy Atlas Shrugged. I've read neither, but I've heard she writes quite well, whether you agree with her or not.

My initial reaction to her is that her views are quite, well, reactionary, but I do like some things she has to say. I suppose, though, that you can look at any character in human history, or, almost any character, and find one or two things they said that you like. That doesn't mean you have to embrace that person as a whole, nor does it mean that you promote their entire body of work; it means simply that you like some things that they said.

So, given the context I laid out, sure, greed is good. Like I said though, that's quite a simplistic, dumbed down version of how I think of the issue.

But as with everything else Brian, you're so damn excited about all of this! Don't get yourself so worked up dude. I still think you need to go on a date. I can hook you up man.

[Mister Agenda]

Rand is hard for laymen (of which I are one) to parse, partly because of her philosophical terminology. When she says 'greed' she means 'enlightened self interest'. When she says 'altruism' she means 'benevolence for no reward at all, not even the satisfaction of helping others'. We know a lot more about the origins of altruism now than was known then; she was completely off base on that issue, I'm not sure if altruism in the sense that she meant it even exists, which makes her main villains straw men and some of her heroes sociopaths.

[Shell B]

Yeah, but we never had to take it seriously.

But there are people in American who do and they are not insignificant

That was never my point, so I'm not sure what your point is. Did I say they're insignificant? I'm pretty sure I just said it's not a great idea to turn to philosophy-laden fiction for your ideology.

[The Grand Nudger]

Works for theists.

[EgoDeath]

But there are people in American who do and they are not insignificant

That was never my point, so I'm not sure what your point is. Did I say they're insignificant? I'm pretty sure I just said it's not a great idea to turn to philosophy-laden fiction for your ideology.

Well, I'm not sure what your guys' original conversation was concerning, but in general, it's totally possibly to extract perfectly valid philosophical ideas and vales from works of fiction, philosophy-laden or not. Like any thinker, I like some things that Rand had to say, but overall, she was quite the reactionary... to the point of great fault.

Though, to be fair, I've yet to read my copy of Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal, in its entirety.

Unlike many other folks, I don't feel the need to put set-in-stone labels on people, and then take measures to avoid positive comparisons to those people no matter the cost of said measures... I simply don't see the world in black and white like many others do. I'm more of a many shades of gray kind of guy.

Granted, I'm not suggested that you're implying any of this, I'm just sort of thinking out loud, and making conversation. That's all.