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RE: The Death Penalty - are you for or against it and why?
June 20, 2011 at 5:23 pm
I think MorosS Makes a good point with the whole 'useless' element. I think this is as relevant as the innocents being killed.
Anyone ever read Dickens' views on the matter?
Makes for good reading.
http://home.earthlink.net/~bsabatini/Ini...hment.html
"Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds."
Einstein
When I was 5 years old, my mother always told me that happiness was the key to life. When I went to school, they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up. I wrote down happy. They told me I didn't understand the assignment. I told them they didn't understand life.
- John Lennon
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RE: The Death Penalty - are you for or against it and why?
June 20, 2011 at 6:02 pm
(June 20, 2011 at 4:59 pm)Moros Synackaon Wrote: To be honest, I don't want you to 'reverse' your opinion by anything other than reasonable arguments, understood and acted upon solely by you. Because I consider that, by entering this thread, each and every one us can make statements, produce evidence and support our respective views and in turn learn, modify and grow what we think is right.
Because there are so few 'rights' in this world, with the rest left up to only what a large collection of over-pretentious apes can attempt to articulate.
Well, part of it was I didn't feel like I had any evidence. I had trouble defending my beliefs during this discussion and felt like I was grasping at straws. The clincher though, is not really any point you made but the question you asked about what the point of the death penalty was. I answered it but after thinking it over for awhile I've realized that my beliefs were motivated mostly by the need to exact revenge and not any real source of punishment. The death penalty is really more of an emotional comfort than anything else, and that should not be a reason to take anyone's life.
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
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RE: The Death Penalty - are you for or against it and why?
June 21, 2011 at 10:53 am
We seem to go over the same ground; the opponents talk about fallibility, the supporters talk about making the system not-fallible, and neither side seem inclined to reflexivity.
Let's swap roles.
Supporters: a thought experiment. You are the architect of a new justice system, allowed to use any amount of resources or means to prosecute. The only provisions are that the system remains adversarial so you have an opposite with all your powers, and the criteria for guilt remains beyond a reasonable doubt. How will you ensure not just prosecutions leading to the death penalty during your personal career are sound, but as your legacy?
Opponents: a thought experiment. You have a machine which can infallibly discern guilt one hundred percent of the time. If you allow it to be mass produced, every single legal region will have it, and the death penalty will be strengthened/resumed/introduced. But only the guilty will be punished. You are at the manufacturing plant, do you push the button?
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RE: The Death Penalty - are you for or against it and why?
June 21, 2011 at 11:03 am
As a supporter, I walk across the hall to the camp of the opponents and push that button.
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RE: The Death Penalty - are you for or against it and why?
June 21, 2011 at 11:12 am
(This post was last modified: June 21, 2011 at 12:44 pm by martin02.)
While it is a resource, I intended the magical one to test the opponents. Supporters have to use real world devices.
I'll go further into the disparity between the two. With fallibility, opponents are not confronting the moral choice of judicial killing. Their thought experiment takes this away. And opponents are saying fallibility is not a problem; they get to explain why in theirs. Supporters have magically bypassed the system to arrive at the ethical dilemma, opponents have to explain ow the magical bit works.
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RE: The Death Penalty - are you for or against it and why?
June 21, 2011 at 1:17 pm
(June 21, 2011 at 10:53 am)martin02 Wrote: We seem to go over the same ground; the opponents talk about fallibility, the supporters talk about making the system not-fallible, and neither side seem inclined to reflexivity.
Where have I spoken about fallibility in this thread? I say it is collateral. Minimize that if you like: I'm still going to use it on occasion.
Quote:Supporters: a thought experiment. You are the architect of a new justice system, allowed to use any amount of resources or means to prosecute. The only provisions are that the system remains adversarial so you have an opposite with all your powers, and the criteria for guilt remains beyond a reasonable doubt. How will you ensure not just prosecutions leading to the death penalty during your personal career are sound, but as your legacy?
You have a very weird way of saying that. Rephrase.
Since when have I cared about a career? I am a pragmatic opportunist that hates hassles and daily grinds... what could there be for me in a career? 
Quote:Opponents: a thought experiment. You have a machine which can infallibly discern guilt one hundred percent of the time. If you allow it to be mass produced, every single legal region will have it, and the death penalty will be strengthened/resumed/introduced. But only the guilty will be punished. You are at the manufacturing plant, do you push the button?
We are all guilty. Pushing that button would condemn all of us
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Where the dear and the strangers can play
Where sometimes is heard a discouraging word
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RE: The Death Penalty - are you for or against it and why?
June 21, 2011 at 1:27 pm
(June 21, 2011 at 1:17 pm)Aerzia Saerules Arktuos Wrote: You have a very weird way of saying that. Rephrase.
Since when have I cared about a career? I am a pragmatic opportunist that hates hassles and daily grinds... what could there be for me in a career?
Not to single anyone out or put words in anyone's mouth; if fallibility is not a problem to supporters of the death penalty, can they explain how they can guarantee this? Or that it's not a problem to kill the wrong people? The thought experiment is intended to give a platform to explain.
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RE: The Death Penalty - are you for or against it and why?
June 21, 2011 at 1:33 pm
"We are all guilty. Pushing that button would condemn all of us."
Only when it is applied, as it was here discussed for heinous crimes befitting the death penalty, not for stealing a Kit-Kat from 7-11.
Slippery slope argument notwithstanding ...
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RE: The Death Penalty - are you for or against it and why?
June 21, 2011 at 2:42 pm
(June 21, 2011 at 1:27 pm)martin02 Wrote: Not to single anyone out or put words in anyone's mouth; if fallibility is not a problem to supporters of the death penalty, can they explain how they can guarantee this? Or that it's not a problem to kill the wrong people? The thought experiment is intended to give a platform to explain.
It is not a problem to kill the wrong people if the people you were going to kill were worth killing.
Only a problem if the nontarget killed was worth a great deal.
Empimethean Wrote:"We are all guilty. Pushing that button would condemn all of us."
Only when it is applied, as it was here discussed for heinous crimes befitting the death penalty, not for stealing a Kit-Kat from 7-11.
Slippery slope argument notwithstanding ...
Stealing a Kit-Kat from 7-11 is worth chopping someone's hand off. Some would consider it worth killing them.
Worth is entirely subjective. What is a 'heinous crime' anyhow? Killing someone? Childish. Speaking state secrets? Juvenile. Butchering trillions of sapients and other creatures? Seen it; done it.
This program says it determines who is guilty. We are all guilty. This program is useless.
Please give me a home where cloud buffalo roam
Where the dear and the strangers can play
Where sometimes is heard a discouraging word
But the skies are not stormy all day
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RE: The Death Penalty - are you for or against it and why?
June 21, 2011 at 2:45 pm
Is a vacuum cleaner useless because it will suck anything if not directed?
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