Converting

[Mr Greene]

Yes I read it and that's why I'm an atheist because even a cursory look at the bible should be enough to convince a reasonable person that it’s the very last document you should thrust in front of someone if you want to convince them to believe in God.

Actually, the truth is exactly the opposite.  I think the vast majority of people who come to faith in Christ do so by reading the scriptures.  I encourage people to read it prayerfully, asking God about what they are reading and to show them the truth.

In my experience it has more to do with strong emotional states.
You say you were looking for 8 years. Can you describe your emotions at the time you found your group?

[Mister Agenda]

I thought you said you were "born again".  You do realise that the born again sects demand that you throw away all the evìdence without so much as glancing at it, right?

Not in my experience.  I fellowship with the Assemblies of God and there is schooling in the evidences of the faith at their Universities.  Personally, I didn't come to faith by that kind of evidence, but rather through personal revelation that I received through reading the bible.  Before that I was apathetic about religion and had no personal interest in it.

I used to be Assemblies of God, I was even a Royal Ranger. I thought I ought to read the Bible cover to cover to better understand God, my faith, and my practice of it. Then I read it again in a modern English version hoping I misunderstood the KJV because of its antiquated English. Then I stopped being a Pentecostal. It didn't make me an atheist, but it convinced me it was just a collection of stories and poems written by a warlike ancient people.

[WinterHold]

If some authors like to leave a "deep" story behind their humor, many others don't. Actually there are so many popular publications that serve nothing but the sole goal of making the reader laugh, generalizing on the whole industry is quite wrong to me.

I am interested in the novel you mentioned to me months ago, about the dark city with lots of crime and criminals. That one seemed interesting.

---

Mere "belonging" is not my thing; you see I prefer to have "morals" and "strong reasons" behind my moves. I believe in God because the idea of a universe without a creator is silly to me: the design of it is too perfect it rings a strong bell.

I believe because it is the most logical thing out there.

An invisible make - believe person won't make you a better person.

When I sell a vehicle - I will tell the buyer all that is wrong about it t hat I know to be wrong. There have been many times where I could have made more money by lying about things or simply keeping my mouth shut. 

I never have.

It's not because Allah, Jesus, The Easter Bunny or The Great Pumpkin commands me to do.so.

I do it because I despise cunts who willingly sell defective things without disclosing those defects.

I do the right thing because it is right.

That's what morals are.

Morals are NOT behaviour inspired by fear of retribution (or hope of approval) by anyone - including invisible friends.


That is simply Pavlovian conditioning.

True morals come from within.

If you personally have morals; others don't. Take politicians for example, or any "liar" around. They will lie, and claim they have good reasons behind the lie.

Though; what keeps people away from lying is strong law with strong penalties. The stronger the penalty, the more people will stand in line. Usually the law will target the convict's wealth and freedom.

If I am a lawman, your post worth nothing to me, all convicts say they never lied before.

With that aside; all states and countries enforce "laws" to keep people in line. Muslims have their own law, just like any other peoples have their own law.

---

In other words; is it morals or fear from the law that kept you in line?

[Mr Greene]

Laws don't stop people from lying, including you.

[Nay_Sayer]

Yes I read it and that's why I'm an atheist because even a cursory look at the bible should be enough to convince a reasonable person that it’s the very last document you should thrust in front of someone if you want to convince them to believe in God.

Actually, the truth is exactly the opposite.  I think the vast majority of people who come to faith in Christ do so by reading the scriptures.  I encourage people to read it prayerfully, asking God about what they are reading and to show them the truth.

Actually, Actually, the truth is the vast majority of people who come to faith in FSM do so by reading the scriptures.  I encourage people to read it prayerfully, asking FSM about what they are reading and to show them the truth.

You too can be saved form your false prophet.

RAmen

[cleansed]

Actually, the truth is exactly the opposite.  I think the vast majority of people who come to faith in Christ do so by reading the scriptures.  I encourage people to read it prayerfully, asking God about what they are reading and to show them the truth.

It's a pleasant thought, but it's wrong.  The majority of the faithful don't even know what's in magic book.  You'd get better info from this group of nonbelievers.  Study after study after study confiorms this rather amusing tick of contemporary faith.  

How people who have not read magic book could come to faith through it, would be the real miracle.  Additionally, it's not entirely cogent to insist that a person who doesn't believe in gods prayerfully ask them for things.  

This may have been what you were doing, ofc- you had an experience while you read magic book.   As such it makes sense for you to tell others to do x - the x that you were doing when you had your experience.

I agree with you that biblical illiteracy is at an all time high.  I can tell you in my experience that most of the Christians I know who are serious about following Jesus read and study their bible and know what is in it, and they have the ability to teach it to others. 

You said it is not entirely cogent to pray to a God that you don't believe in, but isn't that the point of studying the bible in the first place?  You are studying to learn about who God is and so naturally you should be open to the idea of applying what you've learned to seek God out.  Something brought you to it, even if it was just a curiosity. You could liken it to knocking on a door to see if someone is there.  When you pray to Jesus you are inviting Him to open the door and show you He is real.

This is how I believe the majority of people come to faith.  They start reading the bible and God begins to reveal Himself, leading them to commit their lives to Jesus Christ.  That is exactly what happened to me.

---

Actually, the truth is exactly the opposite.  I think the vast majority of people who come to faith in Christ do so by reading the scriptures.  I encourage people to read it prayerfully, asking God about what they are reading and to show them the truth.

In my experience it has more to do with strong emotional states.
You say you were looking for 8 years. Can you describe your emotions at the time you found your group?

Emotions can play a factor in the sense of causing us to be more or less open to God.  During my journey of faith, before I read the bible I had come to my own conclusions about God and I had decided what I thought He was or wasn't.  When I read the bible I was confronted with the reality that God wasn't exactly who I thought He was.  I had a negative reaction to that because I preferred what I believed.  However, what I didn't prefer was believing a comfortable lie to escape an uncomfortable truth.  So, I died to my own ways and I asked Jesus to come into my life.  To my surprise He did and He made me into a new person.

---

Actually, the truth is exactly the opposite.  I think the vast majority of people who come to faith in Christ do so by reading the scriptures.  I encourage people to read it prayerfully, asking God about what they are reading and to show them the truth.

Actually, Actually, the truth is the vast majority of people who come to faith in FSM do so by reading the scriptures.  I encourage people to read it prayerfully, asking FSM about what they are reading and to show them the truth.

You too can be saved form your false prophet.

RAmen

The trouble I have with this argument is basically you are giving something all the attributes of God and then changing the name.  The fsm is something that we know is made up, and it lacks explanatory power.  It's nonsensical but the idea of God isn't nonsensical.  It isn't irrational to believe an all powerful being could have created the Universe, but ironically it would be irrational if you thought that it was a bowl of spaghetti.

---

Not in my experience.  I fellowship with the Assemblies of God and there is schooling in the evidences of the faith at their Universities.  Personally, I didn't come to faith by that kind of evidence, but rather through personal revelation that I received through reading the bible.  Before that I was apathetic about religion and had no personal interest in it.

I used to be Assemblies of God, I was even a Royal Ranger. I thought I ought to read the Bible cover to cover to better understand God, my faith, and my practice of it. Then I read it again in a modern English version hoping I misunderstood the KJV because of its antiquated English. Then I stopped being a Pentecostal. It didn't make me an atheist, but it convinced me it was just a collection of stories and poems written by a warlike ancient people.

I love the Assemblies of God and have been attending since I came to faith in Christ, but just to be clear the denomination doesn't matter because you have to be born again.  There are plenty of people who attend a denomination for instance because they were born into a family that attends, as it seems like you were.  My Pastor has told us more than a few times that he believed a lot about God that he later found out wasn't true simply by what he gleaned from growing up in church and what he observed in his own family life.  He had to come to his own conclusions about God by personally seeking Him out.  God brought him to that point and I believe everyone has a reckoning with God.  I won't speculate about why you didn't believe, but I can tell you that when I read the bible for the first time I had the same experience in this sense;  I didn't immediately like what I was reading.  However, I also couldn't deny that it was true and so I continued pursuing God by committing my life to Jesus Christ and trusting Him to fill in the blanks I didn't understand.

[The Grand Nudger]

I agree with you that biblical illiteracy is at an all time high.  I can tell you in my experience that most of the Christians I know who are serious about following Jesus read and study their bible and know what is in it, and they have the ability to teach it to others. 

Most of the people I know who are serious about irrigation™ have read about bilateral SDI and can teach it to others - it remains a fact that most of the people involved in irrigation, however..are ditchdiggers.

You said it is not entirely cogent to pray to a God that you don't believe in, but isn't that the point of studying the bible in the first place?  You are studying to learn about who God is and so naturally you should be open to the idea of applying what you've learned to seek God out.  Something brought you to it, even if it was just a curiosity.  You could liken it to knocking on a door to see if someone is there.  When you pray to Jesus you are inviting Him to open the door and show you He is real.

You're describing motivations that don't apply to anyone but a person who already believes in gods. 

This is how I believe the majority of people come to faith.  They start reading the bible and God begins to reveal Himself, leading them to commit their lives to Jesus Christ.  That is exactly what happened to me.

The majority of people come to faith by being born into it, as you likely did.  

When we say something like "actually, the truth is the opposite" what follows should probably be the truth, rather than a wildly unrepresentative set of anecdotes dripping with churchspeak. If it's not going to be the truth, it should probably be a more credible fiction, lol.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

It's a pleasant thought, but it's wrong.  The majority of the faithful don't even know what's in magic book.  You'd get better info from this group of nonbelievers.  Study after study after study confiorms this rather amusing tick of contemporary faith.  

How people who have not read magic book could come to faith through it, would be the real miracle.  Additionally, it's not entirely cogent to insist that a person who doesn't believe in gods prayerfully ask them for things.  

This may have been what you were doing, ofc- you had an experience while you read magic book.   As such it makes sense for you to tell others to do x - the x that you were doing when you had your experience.

I agree with you that biblical illiteracy is at an all time high.  I can tell you in my experience that most of the Christians I know who are serious about following Jesus read and study their bible and know what is in it, and they have the ability to teach it to others. 

You said it is not entirely cogent to pray to a God that you don't believe in, but isn't that the point of studying the bible in the first place?  You are studying to learn about who God is and so naturally you should be open to the idea of applying what you've learned to seek God out.  Something brought you to it, even if it was just a curiosity.  You could liken it to knocking on a door to see if someone is there.  When you pray to Jesus you are inviting Him to open the door and show you He is real.

This is how I believe the majority of people come to faith.  They start reading the bible and God begins to reveal Himself, leading them to commit their lives to Jesus Christ.  That is exactly what happened to me.

---

In my experience it has more to do with strong emotional states.
You say you were looking for 8 years. Can you describe your emotions at the time you found your group?

Emotions can play a factor in the sense of causing us to be more or less open to God.  During my journey of faith, before I read the bible I had come to my own conclusions about God and I had decided what I thought He was or wasn't.  When I read the bible I was confronted with the reality that God wasn't exactly who I thought He was.  I had a negative reaction to that because I preferred what I believed.  However, what I didn't prefer was believing a comfortable lie to escape an uncomfortable truth.  So, I died to my own ways and I asked Jesus to come into my life.  To my surprise He did and He made me into a new person.

---

Actually, Actually, the truth is the vast majority of people who come to faith in FSM do so by reading the scriptures.  I encourage people to read it prayerfully, asking FSM about what they are reading and to show them the truth.

You too can be saved form your false prophet.

RAmen

The trouble I have with this argument is basically you are giving something all the attributes of God and then changing the name.  The fsm is something that we know is made up, and it lacks explanatory power.  It's nonsensical but the idea of God isn't nonsensical.  It isn't irrational to believe an all powerful being could have created the Universe, but ironically it would be irrational if you thought that it was a bowl of spaghetti.

---

I used to be Assemblies of God, I was even a Royal Ranger. I thought I ought to read the Bible cover to cover to better understand God, my faith, and my practice of it. Then I read it again in a modern English version hoping I misunderstood the KJV because of its antiquated English. Then I stopped being a Pentecostal. It didn't make me an atheist, but it convinced me it was just a collection of stories and poems written by a warlike ancient people.

I love the Assemblies of God and have been attending since I came to faith in Christ, but just to be clear the denomination doesn't matter because you have to be born again.  There are plenty of people who attend a denomination for instance because they were born into a family that attends, as it seems like you were.  My Pastor has told us more than a few times that he believed a lot about God that he later found out wasn't true simply by what he gleaned from growing up in church and what he observed in his own family life.  He had to come to his own conclusions about God by personally seeking Him out.  God brought him to that point and I believe everyone has a reckoning with God.  I won't speculate about why you didn't believe, but I can tell you that when I read the bible for the first time I had the same experience in this sense;  I didn't immediately like what I was reading.  However, I also couldn't deny that it was true and so I continued pursuing God by committing my life to Jesus Christ and trusting Him to fill in the blanks I didn't understand.

No one has ever been able to adequately explain to me the logic behind 'You have to believe in God before you can believe in God.'

Not for lack of trying, though...

Boru

[The Valkyrie]

This would be my most successful post ever.

Not bad for a parody.

[Nay_Sayer]

The trouble I have with this argument is basically you are giving something all the attributes of God and then changing the name. The fsm is something that we know is made up, and it lacks explanatory power. It's nonsensical but the idea of God isn't nonsensical. It isn't irrational to believe an all powerful being could have created the Universe, but ironically it would be irrational if you thought that it was a bowl of spaghetti.

I take umbrage with that, FSM is very real in my heart. Also, FSM isn't a bowl of spaghetti silly, Xhe is a flying Spaghetti Monster, It's right in the name.

RAmen.