the nature of sin

[Belacqua]

Sin is the preposterous religious notion that The AllMighty Creator of the Universe cares what you do with your genitals.

As so often with this kind of subject, a lot of people seem to think that Christian morality has to do with arbitrary commands handed down by a sky tyrant. For some Christians this is no doubt true, but to pretend that it's the only view is far too narrow. 

Dante spelled out the nature of sin in The Divine Comedy. This is a fictional story but it dramatizes and symbolizes orthodox Christian belief. The differences between Dante's views and those of Augustine or Aquinas are negligible. 

Dante's view of sin, like that of Aquinas, is a Christianized version of the Nicomachean Ethics. It is not about breaking commandments. It is about misdirecting one's love. Dante's view of human nature is very positive; he thinks that we all naturally desire the good -- what's best for us and our societies -- and we only do what's wrong due to misunderstanding or ignorance. Sin is badly-aimed desire, which we think -- mistakenly -- will bring us a good end. 

A simple case is with gluttony, which modern people might call overeating or just general unhealthiness of diet. It is natural to want ice cream, and it's natural to eat it. It's harmful to eat only that, or to desire it to the point of making yourself sick. In all cases like this, virtue consists of the middle path. You eat what's good and what you want in the proper proportions. Each sin has an opposite sin -- in the case of gluttony it would be anorexia or excessive self-denial. 

In my own case, I might feel depressed and get the idea that eating a whole box of caramel Tim Tams will make me feel better. After many experiments, I can definitively say that I feel better after about two, but feel worse after eating the whole box. This is a very minor instance of what Dante means by sin. It is the desire to aim toward the good, which ends up with bad results. 

All this translates very nicely into modern psychological terms. Love of what's harmful, and pursuing it though it gets bad results, can be renamed as obsession or addiction or some kind of neurosis. In this sense psychological health is what Dante means by virtue: balanced behavior which results in what's good for oneself and one's society. 

As always, it's likely that the majority of Christians don't think of sin this way today. Nonetheless the views of Dante and the others I named are a fundamental part of Christian thought, and to discuss the nature of sin without knowing what they said would be like passing judgment on Russian literature without ever having read Dostoevsky or Tolstoy.

[Deesse23]

Convince me that a god, your god, exists, then we can start to talk about "sin".
Go!

[Drich]

then why put a number on the amount of times a prayer had to be repeated? that is what makes it a punishment. contrition would see a man pray till he felt he earned penance. maybe bucky would have felt penance after just one prayer, but now as a means to earn his forgiveness he must pray 35 more times.

(this is all silly anyway as the bible says we can not earn penance or work our way to contrition.) rather we are to repent. Which can be a completely internal change with no external changes made.

No, one doesn’t ‘earn’ penance. Penance is the overt manifestation of the inner feeling of contrition. God, via the priest, absolves you of your sin prior to any penance being performed.

The reason that multiple prayers are often - but not always - suggested is a reflection of the severity of the mortal sin and for the priest to be sure that the penitent is truly contrite. But there isn’t anything in Catholic dogma which requires prayer for absolution. I’ve made confessions where I was asked to put a pound in the Poor Box, or apologize to Tommy Carlyle for swiping his bike - no prayers involved. More than once, I was told to ‘make a good act of contrition’ - the actual act was left up to me.

But I agree it’s all rather silly.

Boru

interesting.. never had anything to do with a catholic worship service aside from studying it.
my sister #3 is a Lutheran which aside from the pope follows alot dot he traditional mindless stuff. and my sister#2 is but lives in La because he husband is plus she like all that crazy ornate stuff. I watched a service/mass if this was all i knew of Christianity i would still be atheist.

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‘Sin lies only in hurting other people unnecessarily. All other “sins” are invented nonsense (hurting yourself isn’t sinful, just stupid).’ - Robert Heinlein

Boru

I am SUCH  a sinner!

1/2 way there. now just accept Jesus as you atonement and we can be forever neighbors.

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Sin is the preposterous religious notion that The AllMighty Creator of the Universe cares what you do with your genitals.

It's funny to think all sin to you is genital related. That reeks of self guilt.

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Sin is the preposterous religious notion that The AllMighty Creator of the Universe cares what you do with your genitals.

Dante shows lust to be the least bad and most easily forgiven sin. The worst is pride.

you do know dante is not apart of the bible in anyway shape or form right?

I made the same mistake thinking it was the tome/standard of hell.

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Convince me that a god, your god, exists, then we can start to talk about "sin".
Go!

why would i want to break your delusion that there is no God? why would i want to force your eyes open  I personally do not want one of you to do or learn any more than what it is in your to know bout god. i am here to simply provide you with easy to understand truth about the God of the bible. if you want it so that there will be no question of what if i were exposed to the truth what if i had only known...

Don't want to learn about sin, don't care to know how god judges people if not by morality you all prize so much.. I don't care

[Gawdzilla Sama]

LOL, Bich sounded grumpy.

[Deesse23]

Convince me that a god, your god, exists, then we can start to talk about "sin".
Go!

why would i want to break your delusion that there is no God? why would i want to force your eyes open  I personally do not want one of you to do or learn any more than what it is in your to know bout god. i am here to simply provide you with easy to understand truth about the God of the bible. if you want it so that there will be no question of what if i were exposed to the truth what if i had only known...

Don't want to learn about sin, don't care to know how god judges people if not by morality you all prize so much.. I don't care

I have no delusion that there is no god, im just not convinced that yours, particularly yours does exist, particularly not convinced by your non-arguments. Who knows, maybe another god exists?

But tell me: If you have no desire to break my bubble about a god, why all that jazz about sin? Pretty fucking useless, eh?

Truth about the god of the bible? Ok, lets start with the most important part of the truth: Is it true that he exists? Oh, fuck, you said you arent interested in convincing me of (the truth of) his existence in the first place.  Now im confused.

[Drich]

why would i want to break your delusion that there is no God? why would i want to force your eyes open  I personally do not want one of you to do or learn any more than what it is in your to know bout god. i am here to simply provide you with easy to understand truth about the God of the bible. if you want it so that there will be no question of what if i were exposed to the truth what if i had only known...

Don't want to learn about sin, don't care to know how god judges people if not by morality you all prize so much.. I don't care

I have no delusion that there is no god, im just not convinced that yours, particularly yours does exist, particularly not convinced by your non-arguments. Who knows, maybe another god exists?

But tell me: If you have no desire to break my bubble about a god, why all that jazz about sin? Pretty fucking useless, eh?

1 the thread was not directed at you.2 As explain in the OP i was challenged by one of you stating my analogies were bad. this particular video uses one of my anthologies to anchor the understanding of sin via the bible not just being a measure of morality. if you can connect to how even a moral person could indeed be separated from the rest given my analogy then i would be vindicate.

Truth about the god of the bible? Ok, lets start with the most important part of the truth: Is it true that he exists? Oh, fuck, you said you arent interested in convincing me of (the truth of) his existence in the first place.  Now im confused.

I said specifically and carefully that i do not want to force anyone to push past what they want to know. This means if you ask i will answer, i am not however going to waist my time forcing something on you in an i dare you to try and teach me something challenge. So if you want to know ask. if not keep pretending i am withholding information from people who earnestly want to know the truth.

[Paleophyte]

Sin is the preposterous religious notion that The AllMighty Creator of the Universe cares what you do with your genitals.

It's funny to think all sin to you is genital related. That reeks of self guilt.

Reading Comprehension: 2/10
Grasshopper missed the bit where this is a "preposterous religious notion" and failed to grasp that it wasn't one held by the author.

Ironic Truth: 10/10
Although not his intent, Grasshopper hit's the nail squarely on the head, albeit via ricochet from his nose. These sins of the groin were almost certainly the product of nominally celibate priests filled with self-guilt over the very real harm that their behaviour had done to others.

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Sin is the preposterous religious notion that The AllMighty Creator of the Universe cares what you do with your genitals.

As so often with this kind of subject, a lot of people seem to think that Christian morality has to do with arbitrary commands handed down by a sky tyrant.

Since I don't believe in this "sky tyrant" you'll be unsurprised to find that I don't follow this school of thinking. Sins are the product of the priesthood. A grab bag of basic societal ethics, ancient tribal prejudices, and a variety of rules designed to control the laity.

Dante's view of human nature is very positive

Dante was a bit of a monster. His "Comedy", the "Divine" was added almost a century later, was a systematic description of Hell, complete with all the best bigotry that our species has to offer. It's a condemnation of humanity that nobody has every penned a systematic description of heaven.

[Belacqua]

Since I don't believe in this "sky tyrant" you'll be unsurprised to find that I don't follow this school of thinking. 

Neither do I. Neither do a surprisingly large number of Christians. "Sky tyrant" is not an accurate description of the God of Dante, Aquinas, Augustine, Boehme, Blake, etc. 

Sins are the product of the priesthood. A grab bag of basic societal ethics, ancient tribal prejudices, and a variety of rules designed to control the laity.

Some Christians work that way. Others have a far more systematic and coherent view of goodness and how we depart from it. 

His "Comedy", the "Divine" was added almost a century later, was a systematic description of Hell, complete with all the best bigotry that our species has to offer.

That's true about the title.

About a third of the Comedy is a description of hell. What part specifically did you find bigoted?

It's a condemnation of humanity that nobody has every penned a systematic description of heaven.

Dante's Paradiso, cantos 30-33 give a systematic description of heaven. And there are many others. 
It's not accurate to say that nobody has ever penned one.

[Paleophyte]

His "Comedy", the "Divine" was added almost a century later, was a systematic description of Hell, complete with all the best bigotry that our species has to offer.

That's true about the title.

About a third of the Comedy is a description of hell. What part specifically did you find bigoted?

Mostly the usual Christian prejudice that everybody who doesn't agree with them suffers for eternity. Some of the "noble pagans" merely got Limbo, but Dante has people who lived and died long before Christ burning in the sixth circle with the heretics.

It's also hard to miss how both heaven and hell are populated by people that Dante liked or disliked. Inferno is one long grudge list.

It's a condemnation of humanity that nobody has every penned a systematic description of heaven.

Dante's Paradiso, cantos 30-33 give a systematic description of heaven. And there are many others. 
It's not accurate to say that nobody has ever penned one.

Inferno is devoted to a systematic and exhaustive description of all the tortures of Hell. Paradiso has just 4 canti devoted to describing heaven and does so in more general, nebulous terms. I have yet to hear of a description of heaven, by any author, that was anywhere near so detailed as Dante's description of hell.

[Belacqua]

Mostly the usual Christian prejudice that everybody who doesn't agree with them suffers for eternity. Some of the "noble pagans" merely got Limbo, but Dante has people who lived and died long before Christ burning in the sixth circle with the heretics.

He also shows at least one person not normally thought to be Christian on his way to heaven. He's clear that God decides who goes, and we don't know. He also points out that some proud Christians will wake up on Judgment Day and find some surprising people ahead of them in line. 

You're correct that as a Medieval Christian he thought that bad people would go to hell. But it isn't merely a question of "who doesn't agree with them," it's a question of who is evil. 

It's also hard to miss how both heaven and hell are populated by people that Dante liked or disliked. Inferno is one long grudge list.

There may be some decisions based on grudges. But it's not true to say that it's "one long grudge list." Because there are many decisions not based on grudges. 

If I updated the Comedy today and put Hitler in hell, that wouldn't be due to a grudge; it would be because I thought Hitler was evil. 

Inferno is devoted to a systematic and exhaustive description of all the tortures of Hell. Paradiso has just 4 canti devoted to describing heaven and does so in more general, nebulous terms. I have yet to hear of a description of heaven, by any author, that was anywhere near so detailed as Dante's description of hell.

I appreciate your walking back your earlier claim here. Before you said, "It's a condemnation of humanity that nobody has every penned a systematic description of heaven," but that's not true. Your current claim, that the description of hell is more detailed, is more accurate. 

But remember that for Dante, heaven, like God, is entirely simple, without divisions, time, or space. There is less to describe than there is in hell. It is also extremely difficult to talk about, because humans are animals who live in division, time, and space, and Dante has to make extensive use of the ineffability topos in order to talk about things that language isn't good at describing. Nonetheless, his description of heaven is systematic and theologically in accord with the main Catholic theologians, despite being perhaps not as long as you'd like. 

Anyway, this is getting away from the point I was making earlier: Dante's conception of sin is not a random collection of prejudices or arbitrary commandments, but a systematic conception of how human behavior diverges from what's in our own best interests.