[Quranic Reflection]: The universe is expanding

[The Grand Nudger]

It doesn't refer to that at all, which is why no islamist knew it before it was discovered, and why you know nothing and can offer nothing like it today.

Magic.....book.

[Deesse23]

Heaven is the universe...... the reference is obvious.

#1 Is it?
#2 Is it?

Why is it not more obvious that heaven is heaven?
...and iirc i asked this already: What if science discovers that the universe is not expanding, according to new data? Is the Quran wrong?

[Paleophyte]

Sorry, you provided no answer there. Let me be precise. Your translation, "And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are [its] expander." arguably contains a single word that has anything to do with the expansion of the universe. Everything else is post-hoc conjecture and wishful thinking. If you wish to demonstrate otherwise then you need to show:

- Where does that passage refer to the universe? "Heaven" is not the universe.
- Where does that passage refer to space-time. Completely absent.

You can't do that because you're copy-N-pasting Muslim appaulogetics that you don't even understand.

Without that you might as well claim that Lincoln stole the Gettysburg Address from a hockey game because both contain the word "score".

Heaven is the universe; calling it "space" or "outer space" or "the void" or "the vacuum" means nothing but that the reference is obvious: we're speaking about space here.

No, it isn't. You've simply chosen to misinterpret it that way to suit your own arguments. The Quran refers to no fewer than seven heavens, none of which are the universe.

[GrandizerII]

WinterHold, why doesn't this verse clearly state instead that it's revealing a remarkable scientific truth not yet known by humankind, and that is that Allah made the universe itself so that it is steadily expanding. Instead, I'm reading a verse that's stating something mundane, that the sky/heaven does look like it was stretched out widely with the credit for the expansion going to Allah. People in the days of Muhammad (and even before) weren't blind, they would've easily noted the "expanse" of the sky/heaven, just as they would've noted the "spread out" earth.

It refers obviously to God making the universe dynamic and expanding; not static as the pre-telescope world thought.

People in the past -especially Europeans- prosecuted whoever says the earth was round and not flat. No Grandizer; so many humans are indeed blind to this day. Take flat-earthers as an example.

Well, it's not obvious to me, Atlas. As a fellow Arabic speaking poster, the word "wase3" and its many derivatives is related more to "wide" or "widening" rather than "expand". Even flat-earthers would agree, I think, that the sky is wide and that the earth is "spread out".

[Peebothuhlu]

At work.


Ah. WinterHold is selectively answering posts now?

So, in case you missed it WinterHold, I'm still awaiting a response as to what NEW piece of knowledge the Quran holds that science is YET to discover.

Cheers.

[WinterHold]

It refers obviously to God making the universe dynamic and expanding; not static as the pre-telescope world thought.

People in the past -especially Europeans- prosecuted whoever says the earth was round and not flat. No Grandizer; so many humans are indeed blind to this day. Take flat-earthers as an example.

Well, it's not obvious to me, Atlas. As a fellow Arabic speaking poster, the word "wase3" and its many derivatives is related more to "wide" or "widening" rather than "expand". Even flat-earthers would agree, I think, that the sky is wide and that the earth is "spread out".

I think I know where you're going: you mean واسع is more related to fasee7 فسيح ?
i.e the verse spoke about God making the heavens vast or spacious; not "expanded".

But my defense is the word "وانا ل"; the "ل" doesn't refer to the past, but to an action that will happen in the future.

i.e, if God said "and the sky is wide" then your point is valid. But he said that the widening is going to happen, the letter "ل" turned the meaning of the word to something "that will happen".

The expansion of the universe is happening right now, but it will also keep happening in the future.
That takes away the relationship to the word "فسيح" because the letter "ل" just turned the word into a verb that will happen in the future.

---

At work.


   Ah.  WinterHold is selectively answering posts now?

So, in case you missed it WinterHold, I'm still awaiting a response as to what NEW piece of knowledge the Quran holds that science is YET to discover.

Cheers.

Yes. I find huge enjoyment ditching your perfect, well-put arguments that I refuted before.
So back to the same answer that I gave to you:


https://atheistforums.org/thread-61164-p...pid1984846

WinterHold said:

Hello to you.

Your previous question -which I answered fully- can be seen in your earlier reply here:

https://atheistforums.org/thread-61164-p...pid1984628

WinterHold said:

No. Jumping from your previous point which was about Pluto -or Frudo- to convert the Quran into an article about Nostradamus will not work as an argument.

You insist on treating the Quran as an article about Nostradamus, and I reject your point since it doesn't make any sense; the Quran is not a book of prophecies.

But there is this verse that describes what non-believers do when faced with Quranic verses:

Sura 17, The Quran:
https://quran.ksu.edu.sa/index.php?l=en#...rans=en_sh

( 89 )   And We have certainly diversified for the people in this Qur'an from every [kind] of example, but most of the people refused [anything] except disbelief.

( 90 )   And they say, "We will not believe you until you break open for us from the ground a spring.

( 91 )   Or [until] you have a garden of palm tress and grapes and make rivers gush forth within them in force [and abundance]

( 92 )   Or you make the heaven fall upon us in fragments as you have claimed or you bring Allah and the angels before [us]

( 93 )   Or you have a house of gold or you ascend into the sky. And [even then], we will not believe in your ascension until you bring down to us a book we may read." Say, "Exalted is my Lord! Was I ever but a human messenger?"

So..if I said right, you'll say left. If I say up, you will say down. If I say the sun shines you'll say no it doesn't.
So..Exalted is my Lord! Was I ever but a human believing in Mohammed's message?

[The Grand Nudger]

Now he's attempting to cast a magic spell over himself after failing to prove magic book was magic.

God isn't speaking to us. Big Mo isn't speaking to us. None of this garbage is either god or big mo's message. It's your cult leaders message. Your cult leader was wrong, and you, gullible cultist that you are, repeated what your cult leader said...and got it wrong for the same reason. Your humanity is arguable, but you clearly don't believe in god or the message of magic book.

[Peebothuhlu]

At work.


   Ah.  WinterHold is selectively answering posts now?

So, in case you missed it WinterHold, I'm still awaiting a response as to what NEW piece of knowledge the Quran holds that science is YET to discover.

Cheers.

Yes. I find huge enjoyment ditching your perfect, well-put arguments that I refuted before.
So back to the same answer that I gave to you:


https://atheistforums.org/thread-61164-p...pid1984846

  You...uhm... didn't refute anything.

You simply reposted/requoted your position.

I,  like others, have only pointed out that your current claim about the Quran is simply 'Post hoc' in its rationalization.

What I am asking you, for the last time now, is for something from the Quran that is a prediction BEFORE the event.

Is there anything in the Quran that makes a comment about the reality around us that science has not discovered yet?

If there is, great! Lets read it, learn form it and all be enlightened! 

If not... then... well...    

Not at work.

[The Grand Nudger]

Would a believing muslim insist that his own post hoc rationalizations are the words of the prophet, or of god?

[WinterHold]

Yes. I find huge enjoyment ditching your perfect, well-put arguments that I refuted before.
So back to the same answer that I gave to you:


https://atheistforums.org/thread-61164-p...pid1984846

  You...uhm... didn't refute anything.

You simply reposted/requoted your position.

I,  like others, have only pointed out that your current claim about the Quran is simply 'Post hoc' in its rationalization.

What I am asking you, for the last time now, is for something from the Quran that is a prediction BEFORE the event.

Is there anything in the Quran that makes a comment about the reality around us that science has not discovered yet?

If there is, great! Lets read it, learn form it and all be enlightened! 

If not... then... well...    

Not at work.

I actually stated that this is not a post-hoc; you can see the detailed explanation I made to another member -Grandizer- in this post:

https://atheistforums.org/thread-61164-p...pid1985630

I can't help you if you with Arabic more than that; but a speaker of the language can validate my response; though.