Turkey's Erdogan orders the conversion of Hagia Sophia back into a mosque

[ido]

The problem I have here is that Erdogan is not taking this step out of some special love for Islam. The Blue Mosque is significantly bigger and grander and is literally 20 steps away if you've ever been to the area. This is purely a political play and I do not like the idea of a religious place of worship being used as a tool to advance your political positions.

[WinterHold]

But the Turkish people -along with their parties- voted.
So, internal Turkish affair. You can join your resisting vote to the Vatican though, Greece and France.

But it's an internal Turkish affair.

But was there a vote, though? I understood that Erdogan did this via a decree.

Boru

The presidential decree is preceded by voting by the court:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/10/world...dogan.html

The court decision came as the culmination of a four-year campaign by an obscure cultural association that made legal applications to restore a number of monuments, including several Byzantine churches, as mosques. Hagia Sophia will be the fourth Byzantine church museum to be restored as a mosque under Mr. Erdogan, but by far the most significant one. In November, the famous Chora monastery church in Istanbul had its status as a museum revoked.

As in all democratic systems; the court must decide first -based on voting- then the president writes the decree.

Turkish people decided. Turkish people got what they wished. That's a fine democracy if you ask me.

---

The problem I have here is that Erdogan is not taking this step out of some special love for Islam. The Blue Mosque is significantly bigger and grander and is literally 20 steps away if you've ever been to the area. This is purely a political play and I do not like the idea of a religious place of worship being used as a tool to advance your political positions.

Who cares if the Turkish people voted? the building is theirs.

[polymath257]

Rather an over simplified view, frankly.

A great deal of Greek knowledge was preserved by the Byzantine empire. This is the source of many of the texts later translated for western Europe.

Islamic civilization didn't *just* preserve that knowledge: it extended that knowledge in many different directions. In particular, a lot of advances were made in medicine, mathematics, astronomy, optics, etc.

Once in Europe, it was primarily the Christian monks that did the translations and the Christian cathedral schools that discussed and promoted the 'new' learning. It was there that many ideas concerning motion, inertia, the nature of the vacuum, and other physical concepts were elucidated. It was a monk that first investigated what we know would call fractional exponents and imagined irrational exponents.

Also, the Christian view partly underlies the very notion of a 'natural law', with the corresponding idea that humans could potentially discover and understand such laws. Much of this discussion serves as the foundation for the much later rise of modern science.

My view towards science is that it's best utilized and practiced by all humans together; not just a portion of society. Under this view I treasure the "Open Source" method of spreading knowledge.

Science in its image today is a collaboration of cultures. The Church didn't believe in that and its actions prove it, but Muslims opened their universities for all; even non-Muslims. That's why the Church fell; and Muslims ruled in that era.

Except that you have the timing wrong. The Byzantine state didn't fall until 1453, well past the time when the Islamic lands were at the peak of their scientific inventiveness. By the time the Ottomans took Constantinople, the era of Islamic science was long past.

Also, Islamic lands did NOT have universities in the western sense: they had madrassas, which were usually donated under a waqf, which had to obey religious restrictions on the material covered.

Another big reason for the decline of Islamic learning was, of course, the destruction of the Bayt al Hikma in Baghdad by the Mongols. The Islamic lands in what is now Spain managed to survive a bit longer.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

But was there a vote, though? I understood that Erdogan did this via a decree.

Boru

The presidential decree is preceded by voting by the court:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/10/world...dogan.html

The court decision came as the culmination of a four-year campaign by an obscure cultural association that made legal applications to restore a number of monuments, including several Byzantine churches, as mosques. Hagia Sophia will be the fourth Byzantine church museum to be restored as a mosque under Mr. Erdogan, but by far the most significant one. In November, the famous Chora monastery church in Istanbul had its status as a museum revoked.

As in all democratic systems; the court must decide first -based on voting- then the president writes the decree.

Turkish people decided. Turkish people got what they wished. That's a fine democracy if you ask me.

---

The problem I have here is that Erdogan is not taking this step out of some special love for Islam. The Blue Mosque is significantly bigger and grander and is literally 20 steps away if you've ever been to the area. This is purely a political play and I do not like the idea of a religious place of worship being used as a tool to advance your political positions.

Who cares if the Turkish people voted? the building is theirs.

Funny - just a few posts ago, you seemed to put great store by the claim that the Turkish people voted for this, now it’s ‘who cares?’. 

And a court decision followed by a presidential decree is hardly the same as a referendum by the people. You have a bizarre notion of how democratic systems work.

Boru

[WinterHold]

The presidential decree is preceded by voting by the court:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/10/world...dogan.html


As in all democratic systems; the court must decide first -based on voting- then the president writes the decree.

Turkish people decided. Turkish people got what they wished. That's a fine democracy if you ask me.

---

Who cares if the Turkish people voted? the building is theirs.

Funny - just a few posts ago, you seemed to put great store by the claim that the Turkish people voted for this, now it’s ‘who cares?’. 

And a court decision followed by a presidential decree is hardly the same as a referendum by the people. You have a bizarre notion of how democratic systems work.

Boru

The court decision preceded the decree by 4 years of legal case!!

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/10/world...dogan.html

The court decision came as the culmination of a four-year campaign by an obscure cultural association that made legal applications to restore a number of monuments

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Funny - just a few posts ago, you seemed to put great store by the claim that the Turkish people voted for this, now it’s ‘who cares?’. 

And a court decision followed by a presidential decree is hardly the same as a referendum by the people. You have a bizarre notion of how democratic systems work.

Boru

The court decision preceded the decree by 4 years of legal case!!

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/10/world...dogan.html

The court decision came as the culmination of a four-year campaign by an obscure cultural association that made legal applications to restore a number of monuments

Which is still not the same thing as a vote.  The electorate doesn't get to cast votes on the outcome of legal cases. And before you go all nutty about the courts reflecting the will of the people, bear in mind that judges in Turkey are appointed, not elected. The decision on Hagia Sophia was popular, but that's STILL not the same as people voting for it.

You're either obdurate or ignorant. Maybe both.

Boru

[WinterHold]

The court decision preceded the decree by 4 years of legal case!!

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/10/world...dogan.html

Which is still not the same thing as a vote.  The electorate doesn't get to case votes on the outcome of legal cases. And before you go all nutty about the courts reflecting the will of the people, bear in mind that judges in Turkey are appointed, not elected. The decision on Hagia Sophia was popular, but that's STILL not the same as people voting for it.

You're either obdurate or ignorant. Maybe both.

Boru

In 2004 parliament adopted legislation providing for the establishment of regional appeals courts to relieve the high court's caseload and allow the judiciary to operate more efficiently.[5]

[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judicial_system_of_Turkey#cite_note-state-5][/url]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judicial_system_of_Turkey

Turkey has a democratically elected parliament.It passed the law of turning Hagia Sophia into a mosque; Erdogan only signed the decree after the court judged.

You obviously don't know what courts are; or intentionally acting a fool.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Which is still not the same thing as a vote.  The electorate doesn't get to case votes on the outcome of legal cases. And before you go all nutty about the courts reflecting the will of the people, bear in mind that judges in Turkey are appointed, not elected. The decision on Hagia Sophia was popular, but that's STILL not the same as people voting for it.

You're either obdurate or ignorant. Maybe both.

Boru

In 2004 parliament adopted legislation providing for the establishment of regional appeals courts to relieve the high court's caseload and allow the judiciary to operate more efficiently.[5]

[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judicial_system_of_Turkey#cite_note-state-5][/url]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judicial_system_of_Turkey

Turkey has a democratically elected parliament.It passed the law of turning Hagia Sophia into a mosque; Erdogan only signed the decree after the court judged.

You obviously don't know what courts are; or intentionally acting a fool.

Boru

[WinterHold]

[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judicial_system_of_Turkey#cite_note-state-5][/url]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judicial_system_of_Turkey

Turkey has a democratically elected parliament.It passed the law of turning Hagia Sophia into a mosque; Erdogan only signed the decree after the court judged.

You obviously don't know what courts are; or intentionally acting a fool.

Boru

Exactly. No need for trolling next time; Turkey managed to kick the army generals and reclaim the right of its people. They are Muslims, they have democracy. So why so angry?

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Boru

Exactly. No need for trolling next time; Turkey managed to kick the army generals and reclaim the right of its people. They are Muslims, they have democracy. So why so angry?

lol, I'm not angry. In fact, I agree with you to the extent that Turkey has a right to do as they please with Hagia Sophia. What I disagree with are you claims that Turks voted for this, and that Parliament passed a law which Erdogan signed.  There was no such law, and Erdogan 'issued a decree'.

Boru