That Gay Thread

[Irreligious Atheist]

You know, I completely missed that when the article was first posted here.  

I suppose I shouldn't be surprised at things like this anymore  - it's become SOP for bigots. As long as they've been trying (and they've been trying for a long, LONG time), they can't find anything about being homosexual that's a danger to society, so they have to make up stupid, pig-ignorant nonsense like equating homosexuality to paedophila and bestiality.

Ellen DeGeneres had a great take on this years ago. It went something like, 'People say that legalizing gay marriage will lead to people marrying goats. Goats. What they miss is that I don't want to marry a goat. No gay person I know wants to marry a goat.'

Boru

I used to make fun of those arguments just like Ellen did, but in hindsight I have to admit some bad things did follow the legalization of gay marriage, and I did not see it coming. Of course marriage equality is great and needed to happen. Since then though, we have the mainstream pushing the idea that masculinity is bad and needs to be cured (for example the Gillette commercial, which got twice as many dislikes as likes, and there are countless other examples). You can't blame conservatives for looking at things like this and thinking that they're trying to weaken/feminize men. President Biden just made it so biological women are forced to compete at a disadvantage in their own sports, and so they can't escape the presence of a penis even in a change room or an abused women's shelter. People are being censored for having their own opinion on what is or is not a man or a woman. Censorship is soaring. You can't force people to like transgender people by forcing them to speak a certain way. That's not how things work.

The pedophile thing was only a couple of articles in some left leaning news outlets, which I didn't mind. They were written by non-offending people and were ok. I think the right overreacted to that.

[Rev. Rye]

I used to make fun of those arguments just like Ellen did, but in hindsight I have to admit some bad things did follow the legalization of gay marriage, and I did not see it coming. Of course marriage equality is great and needed to happen. Since then though, we have the mainstream pushing the idea that masculinity is bad and needs to be cured (for example the Gillette commercial, which got twice as many dislikes as likes, and there are countless other examples). You can't blame conservatives for looking at things like this and thinking that they're trying to weaken/feminize men. President Biden just made it so biological women are forced to compete at a disadvantage in their own sports, and so they can't escape the presence of a penis even in a change room or an abused women's shelter. People are being censored for having their own opinion on what is or is not a man or a woman. Censorship is soaring. You can't force people to like transgender people by forcing them to speak a certain way. That's not how things work.

The pedophile thing was only a couple of articles in some left leaning news outlets, which I didn't mind. They were written by non-offending people and were ok. I think the right overreacted to that.

1) Here's the thing about the discourse around toxic masculinity: they're  not condemning masculinity itself. They're condemning certain behaviours that A) have become associated with masculinity in our culture, and B) are extremely destructive, not just to women and anyone outside the gender binary, but to men themselves. It's the idea that men should be dominant, aggressive, and hostile to those who think differently, shit that might have been advantageous when we lived in caves, but are, to say the least, extremely maladaptive now. The mere fact that it's phrased as an adjective modifying a noun should have clued you in on that (because it's a modifier that implies it isn't an inherent part of the noun in question). That's kind of what the Gilette ad was going for, even if it is just a corporate attempt at wokeness that doesn't really mean anything in the context of the organization's actual policies.

2) Trans women in sports are not something Joe Biden forced on sports organizations. This has been an issue for years and, indeed, many sports have ruled that they can actually participate (at least provided they're on their hormones and have been so for a while) because it turns out that it actually doesn't have much of a material advantage. I know, right? As recently as a few months ago, I would have just seen the video of Fallon Fox going all Butch Coolidge on Tamikka Brents and assumed that maybe this might be one of the few areas where trans women are actually at an advantage over cis women, but it turns out that's not actually the case. It turns out that the hormones balance out the advantages that a masculine build would seem to give.

3) I can count the verified examples I've seen of men invading women's spaces to assault them and claiming a gender identity as a defense on one hand. It's worth noting that in both of the legitimate cases I could verify, the attackers had a history of child molestation, so perhaps that's a bigger red flag. And before you show me some news stories to counter this claim, I should advise you to only give me examples where the attacker actually used gender identity as a defense for why they were there in the first place, because it turns out that's shockingly absent in many of the articles used to fearmonger. Merely cross-dressing in a hare-brained scheme to go to women's spaces and assault women is not enough to implicate the trans community. Cross Dressing=/=Transgender, and indeed, in at least one case, a transphobe tried to pass off covering themselves in toilet paper as some sort of trans thing. Here's the case, and here's the time it was framed as an attack by a transwoman. Admittedly, said transphobe is such an idiot that you start to suspect that his parents were... a bit more closely related than a white person and a Korean. On the whole, the more I look at this narrative, the more it sounds like it's some meticulously planned Ocean's 11-style heist that includes plastic surgery for whatever reason when all they needed to do was just waltz into the vault and get it, because nobody's guarding or even locking the vault and the cops aren't likely to get you. Becoming trans just to invade women's spaces and assault them is a needlessly high risk added to the equation when people can just go in, assault them, leave, and not get caught because rape is a depressingly hard crime to prosecute successfully.

4) If people are being censored for their views on gender identity, well, I'm not entirely pro-censorship, but given that A) these ideas are wrong-headed, and B) literally every study on the subject shows that normalisation of these views actively makes things worse for them, it only makes sense that this would happen. And even when they are censored, they can probably still find a reasonably large platform, provided they're okay with sharing a space with people arguing about skull shapes and shit like that.

5) The erroneous connection made with homosexuality and pedophilia is depressingly long. Just to take one example:



This may even have its roots in Ancient Greece, when it was normal for, for instance, the old Socrates to have sex with a young Alcibiades, but if Alexander the Great was in a relationship with Hephaestion (and both were about the same age), it was highly unusual. Or, indeed, it might just be a reflection of pre-existing tendencies towards age gaps in relationships that are considered normal in straight couples, but deviant in gay couples for whatever reason.

[no one]

Otter Van Kitaboodle IV:
Gay volleyball player's self-acceptance led to deeper bond with college teammates.


When these players take balls to the face, is that a penalty or a reward?

[The Architect Of Fate]

 I have to admit some bad things did follow the legalization of gay marriage, and I did not see it coming. 

Nope nothing bad happened 

Of course marriage equality is great and needed to happen.

The only good thing in this rant 

Since then though, we have the mainstream pushing the idea that masculinity is bad and needs to be cured (for example the Gillette commercial, which got twice as many dislikes as likes, and there are countless other examples). 

Not happening the objection has been too toxic masculinity not masculinity as a whole. The Gillette commercial telling men not to be assholes was disliked by fragile incel losers with a victim complex, And no there are no legit examples of the so-called "war on masculinity" it's culture war mythology.

You can't blame conservatives for looking at things like this and thinking that they're trying to weaken/feminize men.

Yes, you can. Because it's total bullshit.

 President Biden just made it so biological women are forced to compete at a disadvantage in their own sports,

The question of Trans people in sport is an open question. But so far the no side is losing on the evidence front.

 and so they can't escape the presence of a penis even in a change room or an abused women's shelter.

You mean trans women get treated like women. How awful!

 People are being censored for having their own opinion on what is or is not a man or a woman. Censorship is soaring. 

You mean are facing consequences for denying the fact trans people exist and are rightly being socially and morally torn down for it, And no there has been no censorship just whinging about imagined censorship.

You can't force people to like transgender people by forcing them to speak a certain way.

No, but you can punish people for harassment and socially impose consequences for spreading hate.

 That's not how things work.

Yes, it is.

The pedophile thing was only a couple of articles in some left-leaning news outlets, which I didn't mind.

Which has nothing to do with anything 

 They were written by non-offending people and were ok. I think the right overreacted to that.

Whatever 

Another ridiculous rant divorced from reality 

[Silver]

The Birdcage (1996), apparently, is Hollywood's Most Monumental Gay Movie

The most famous moment from “The Birdcage” is probably the one where Robin Williams gives a bored young hunk a 15-second tutorial in the history of American dance. It’s one of the late actor’s signature scenes. In an uproarious gush of energy, Williams goes from coolheaded nightclub owner supervising a Sondheim number to erudite showman. He demonstrates Bob Fosse, Martha Graham, Twyla Tharp, Michael Kidd and “Madonna, Madonna, Madonna” with the zeal of a gay man who knows a thing or five about art.

While reading a new biography about the director, Mike Nichols, I was amazed to learn the whole thing was concocted on the fly during the shoot. Equally telling is the fact that Williams, then one of Hollywood’s biggest stars, had asked to play the more restrained of the two leads. His hyper-theatrical screen partner would spend the final 35 minutes of the film in drag, and Williams didn’t want to retread what he’d recently done in “Mrs. Doubtfire.” So Nichols offered that role to Nathan Lane, a Broadway luminary. It was for the best. Unlike Williams, Lane is gay and could easily grasp the complexities of this particular code-switching.

That’s what “The Birdcage” is about, after all ― gender performance, a topic far less commonly discussed when the movie debuted 25 years ago, on March 8, 1996. Adapted by Elaine May from the 1973 French play “La Cage aux Folles,” it became Hollywood’s first blockbuster to revolve around open, well-adjusted LGBTQ protagonists.

[Irreligious Atheist]

I used to make fun of those arguments just like Ellen did, but in hindsight I have to admit some bad things did follow the legalization of gay marriage, and I did not see it coming. Of course marriage equality is great and needed to happen. Since then though, we have the mainstream pushing the idea that masculinity is bad and needs to be cured (for example the Gillette commercial, which got twice as many dislikes as likes, and there are countless other examples). You can't blame conservatives for looking at things like this and thinking that they're trying to weaken/feminize men. President Biden just made it so biological women are forced to compete at a disadvantage in their own sports, and so they can't escape the presence of a penis even in a change room or an abused women's shelter. People are being censored for having their own opinion on what is or is not a man or a woman. Censorship is soaring. You can't force people to like transgender people by forcing them to speak a certain way. That's not how things work.

The pedophile thing was only a couple of articles in some left leaning news outlets, which I didn't mind. They were written by non-offending people and were ok. I think the right overreacted to that.

1) Here's the thing about the discourse around toxic masculinity: they're  not condemning masculinity itself. They're condemning certain behaviours that A) have become associated with masculinity in our culture, and B) are extremely destructive, not just to women and anyone outside the gender binary, but to men themselves. It's the idea that men should be dominant, aggressive, and hostile to those who think differently, shit that might have been advantageous when we lived in caves, but are, to say the least, extremely maladaptive now. The mere fact that it's phrased as an adjective modifying a noun should have clued you in on that (because it's a modifier that implies it isn't an inherent part of the noun in question). That's kind of what the Gilette ad was going for, even if it is just a corporate attempt at wokeness that doesn't really mean anything in the context of the organization's actual policies.

2) Trans women in sports are not something Joe Biden forced on sports organizations. This has been an issue for years and, indeed, many sports have ruled that they can actually participate (at least provided they're on their hormones and have been so for a while) because it turns out that it actually doesn't have much of a material advantage. I know, right? As recently as a few months ago, I would have just seen the video of Fallon Fox going all Butch Coolidge on Tamikka Brents and assumed that maybe this might be one of the few areas where trans women are actually at an advantage over cis women, but it turns out that's not actually the case. It turns out that the hormones balance out the advantages that a masculine build would seem to give.

3) I can count the verified examples I've seen of men invading women's spaces to assault them and claiming a gender identity as a defense on one hand. It's worth noting that in both of the legitimate cases I could verify, the attackers had a history of child molestation, so perhaps that's a bigger red flag. And before you show me some news stories to counter this claim, I should advise you to only give me examples where the attacker actually used gender identity as a defense for why they were there in the first place, because it turns out that's shockingly absent in many of the articles used to fearmonger. Merely cross-dressing in a hare-brained scheme to go to women's spaces and assault women is not enough to implicate the trans community. Cross Dressing=/=Transgender, and indeed, in at least one case, a transphobe tried to pass off covering themselves in toilet paper as some sort of trans thing. Here's the case, and here's the time it was framed as an attack by a transwoman. Admittedly, said transphobe is such an idiot that you start to suspect that his parents were... a bit more closely related than a white person and a Korean. On the whole, the more I look at this narrative, the more it sounds like it's some meticulously planned Ocean's 11-style heist that includes plastic surgery for whatever reason when all they needed to do was just waltz into the vault and get it, because nobody's guarding or even locking the vault and the cops aren't likely to get you. Becoming trans just to invade women's spaces and assault them is a needlessly high risk added to the equation when people can just go in, assault them, leave, and not get caught because rape is a depressingly hard crime to prosecute successfully.

4) If people are being censored for their views on gender identity, well, I'm not entirely pro-censorship, but given that A) these ideas are wrong-headed, and B) literally every study on the subject shows that normalisation of these views actively makes things worse for them, it only makes sense that this would happen. And even when they are censored, they can probably still find a reasonably large platform, provided they're okay with sharing a space with people arguing about skull shapes and shit like that.

5) The erroneous connection made with homosexuality and pedophilia is depressingly long. Just to take one example:



This may even have its roots in Ancient Greece, when it was normal for, for instance, the old Socrates to have sex with a young Alcibiades, but if Alexander the Great was in a relationship with Hephaestion (and both were about the same age), it was highly unusual. Or, indeed, it might just be a reflection of pre-existing tendencies towards age gaps in relationships that are considered normal in straight couples, but deviant in gay couples for whatever reason.

I've seen many modern day feminists pushed by mainstream media say that the worst thing for a boys father to tell him is to be a man. A man can't explain something while being a man without being called out for sexism, or 'mansplaining'. Mainstream media couldn't even help themselves from calling even Bernie Sanders himself a sexist meanie multiple times, once for calling Warren's claim untrue, and it was implied by Joy Reid of MSNBC that Bernie is abusive for how he spoke to his wife. The most pro-woman person in the race couldn't even escape the cries of sexism and abuse of women. Every big male actor in Hollywood is put in a dress. Of course I don't have any issue with a man wanting to wear whatever and I don't have any issue with anyone being transgender, but if you pay attention, it does look like there's an agenda being pushed. The mainstream is propping up people who say their goal is the destruction of the nuclear family. Hollywood celebs are pushing the "Gender is Over" movement to merge the genders into one.




Things are getting a bit too weird out there. Drag queens with sex acts as their stage name are teaching five year olds to twerk at public libraries.

I'm cool with transgenders using whatever washroom. It's not about number of rape cases in women's shelters. You can't ask these women to think logically in the state of mind they're in or just tell them to look at the numbers. You are ignoring the comfort level and mental well being of women who may have just been beaten or raped by a man, to cater to less than one percent of the population. Is this really fair to bio women? You're going to take a woman who's just been raped and tell her to stop being irrational with her discomfort? As far as dressing rooms go, a bio woman or child shouldn't have to see a bio mans penis hanging out in front of them. With a washroom it's different because they are in a stall.

I'm all for protecting trans people, but there has been an overcorrection. A woman had to close down her business because a woman with a penis demanded a bikini wax, which the business only does for female genitalia. This trans lady wanted to force her penis on the woman who ran the business when that wasn't even a part of her business, and they had to shut down because to refuse to do so is against the law here in Canada, with our laws that are similar to what Biden just signed into law. This is an example of how laws like the one Biden signed can be abused.

I'm like 2 percent gay myself (though I identify as straight and would never want to have sex with a man) and I want non-straight and non-cis people to be who they are and feel more comfortable doing it, but 'the agenda' has gone too far. When it was gay marriage that was being fought for, the argument was "you don't have to like it, but we just want to be able to get married like you". It went from that, to now where it's "You either use the language we tell you to use, or you lose your voice and get shut out. Even if you're a doctor or an evolutionary biologist, you don't get to be a part of the debate. If you disagree with us, we're going to call that violence." So, in hindsight, I think conservatives were right that something bad was coming, but they were just wrong about what the bad thing would be.

[The Architect Of Fate]

I've seen many modern-day feminists pushed by mainstream media say that the worst thing for a boys father to tell him is to be a man.

You're going to need to provide a quote for that. But the idea of telling your son to "be a man " or to ' man up " is toxic. Don't tell them to be a man tell them to be themselves. Don't impose your own expectation on them.

 A man can't explain something while being a man without being called out for sexism, or 'mansplaining'.

Well, that's bullshit.

 Mainstream media couldn't even help themselves from calling even Bernie Sanders himself a sexist meanie multiple times, once for calling Warren's claim untrue, 

Bullshit a couple of news commentators accepted Warrens falsehood. But many did not. So you're simply exaggerating.

and it was implied by Joy Reid of MSNBC that Bernie is abusive for how he spoke to his wife.

Who cares? Joe Reid is a hack and she received a ton of backlash for her comments.

 The most pro-woman person in the race couldn't even escape the cries of sexism and abuse of women. 

Just because some people accused Sanders of sexism in a presidential race only proves that politics is dirty.

Every big male actor in Hollywood is put in a dress.

What the fuck does that even mean?

 Of course I don't have any issue with a man wanting to wear whatever and I don't have any issue with anyone being transgender, but if you pay attention, it does look like there's an agenda being pushed.

No, they're fucking isn't 

 

The mainstream is propping up people who say their goal is the destruction of the nuclear family.

So? The presumption here is that we must preserve it.

 Hollywood celebs are pushing the "Gender is Over" movement to merge the genders into one.

Gender is mostly a social construct thus if someone wants to do away with it then fine.

Things are getting a bit too weird out there. 

According to whom? 

Drag queens with sex acts as their stage name are teaching five-year-olds to twerk at public libraries.

As if kids even know what those names mean and the drag queens aren't hurting anybody so who cares? Even if disagree with this one instance and yes it was ONE instance. It doesn't prove anything.

I'm cool with transgenders using whatever washroom. 

Then you're inconsistent 

It's not about a number of rape cases in women's shelters.You can't ask these women to think logically in the state of mind they're in or just tell them to look at the numbers. You are ignoring the comfort level and mental well being of women who may have just been beaten or raped by a man, to cater to less than one percent of the population. Is this really fair to bio women? You're going to take a woman who's just been raped and tell her to stop being irrational with her discomfort? As far as dressing rooms go, a bio woman or child shouldn't have to see a bio mans penis hanging out in front of them. With a washroom it's different because they are in a stall.

Yes, it is fair to tell her to get over being irrational. Trans women are women and should not be treated any differently if they are the victims of abuse.

I'm all for protecting trans people, but there has been an overcorrection.

Bullshit society hasn't even come close to equality let alone overcorrection.

 A woman had to close down her business because a woman with a penis demanded a bikini wax, which the business only does for female genitalia.

Well, that's a lie. The business was not shut down because the woman with a penis demanded a bikini wax. That case was thrown away, And pointing to one extreme case is not proof of overcorrection when faced with the mountain of discrimination trans people face.

 

This trans lady wanted to force her penis on the woman who ran the business when that wasn't even a part of her business, and they had to shut down because to refuse to do so is against the law here in Canada, with our laws that are similar to what Biden just signed into law. This is an example of how laws like the one Biden signed can be abused.

No law in Canada forced her to shut down. She did that all by herself and no Biden law cannot be abused. Did you even read the law?

I'm like 2 percent gay myself (though I identify as straight and would never want to have sex with a man)

That's not being gay and your attempt a tokenism is sad.

 and I want non-straight and non-cis people to be who they are and feel more comfortable doing it,

And no one is saying otherwise.

 but 'the agenda' has gone too far.

Funny how you never get around to showing this evil "agenda" you keep rambling on about


 

When it was gay marriage that was being fought for, the argument was "you don't have to like it, but we just want to be able to get married like you".

No, the argument was "out relationships are equal to yours we should be allowed to marry.

 It went from that, to now where it's "You either use the language we tell you to use, or you lose your voice and get shut out. 

What the hell do gender pronouns have to do with gay marriage? And no it's "I am a woman and expect to be treated as such and I won't put up with being disrespected due to someone else's bigotry or ignorance and society seems to agree. If you like those consequences ...Tough

 Even if you're a doctor or an evolutionary biologist,

Authority does not give you the right to disrespect people and no the consensus is in Trans people exist and Trans identity is valid.

 you don't get to be a part of the debate. 

Because there is no debate Trans people exist and Trans identity is valid.

If you disagree with us, we're going to call that violence.

Trans isn't disagreement because nothing to disagree on. Trans people exist and Trans identity is valid

" So, in hindsight, I think conservatives were right that something bad was coming, but they were just wrong about what the bad thing would be.

They were wrong about everything and so are you.

So another longwinded heap of nonsense.

[Irreligious Atheist]

No one denies that these people exist. That's silly. They disagree on the definition of gender or sex, and disagree that gender or sex can be changed. It's all semantics. Who cares if these people have stuck with an outdated definition of gender? Let them be ignorant. You shouldn't get to force people to use the same definition of words that you use just because outdated language makes you uncomfortable.

It's not wrong to tell a boy to be a man. You should teach your son to be strong minded, so he can stand up for himself, defend himself and eventually take care of and protect his family. How are those toxic things? If the lessons don't stick and the boy ends up super sensitive and anxious or whatever, then that's fine and you accept the boy as he is, but that doesn't mean you give up from the start without at least attempting to help him become a strong minded man who won't get walked over in life.

[The Architect Of Fate]

No one denies that these people exist. That's silly. 

Plenty of people deny they exist as trans people so no it's not silly.

They disagree on the definition of gender or sex,

There is no disagreement sex and gender are different things. This has been the case for decades and denial of that is a denial of trans people.

 

disagree that gender or sex can be changed. 

Gender is a social construction thus it can be changed. To deny this is to deny the existence of trans people

It's all semantics.

Nope, if you don't accept gender can change, and denying gender and sex are distinct you are denying the existence of trans people, And that is awful because they are distinct and it can change these are facts that cannot be denied.

 Who cares if these people have stuck with an outdated definition of gender?

We should care because those definitions influence their treatment of trans people.

 Let them be ignorant. 

How about no and we either inform them and if they continue to deny it we make damn sure their bigotry isn't allowed to fuck over trans people.

You shouldn't get to force people to use the same definition of words that you use just because outdated language makes you uncomfortable.

Transpeople have every right to demand respect and transphobes have no right to insist we respect their archaic ignorance in the face of facts.

It's not wrong to tell a boy to be a man. 

Yes, it is. No one should be telling boys to be anything. They decide who they are.

You should teach your son to be strong minded, 

You don't need to be a man to be strong-minded they can be strong-minded as whoever they are.

so he can stand up for himself, defend himself and eventually take care of and protect his family.

None of these traits are exclusive to men nor do any of them require any mention of being a man.

 How are those toxic things?

They aren't but telling young boys that they need to be a man to be any of the above is.

 If the lessons don't stick and the boy ends up super sensitive and anxious or whatever,

Bullshit

 then that's fine and you accept the boy as he is, but that doesn't mean you give up from the start without at least attempting to help him become a strong-minded man who won't get walked over in life.

Strong-mindedness has nothing to do with masculinity

[Silver]

Conservatives are such snowflakes they get upset over their misinterpretations of situations. Naturally, there is nothing wrong with masculinity. The issue is toxic masculinity.