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Would Jesus promote punishing the innocent instead of the guilty?
RE: Would Jesus promote punishing the innocent instead of the guilty?
And none of the above
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RE: Would Jesus promote punishing the innocent instead of the guilty?
(September 6, 2020 at 10:12 am)Vicki Q Wrote: He jumped on the bandwagon after Damascus Road.

Paul's miraculous conversion story on Damascus Road is lifted from Euripides' play The Bacchae. Like Paul, the play’s villain Pentheus persecutes the cult of Dionysus. However, also like Paul, despite himself, he is ironically converted to the faith to by an unwelcome personal epiphany of the wine god. Peter and Paul’s miraculous prison breaks in Acts also feature the same thrilling escapades as Euripides’ play, written roughly 500 years earlier. Both include miraculous unlocking of chains and handy earthquakes.

Writer of Acts even quotes the play when in a scene where Jesus, the bright light from heaven, speaks to Paul/Saul, saying to him: “Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? It is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.” Because “kick against the pricks” line is spoken by Dionysus in the play.
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
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RE: Would Jesus promote punishing the innocent instead of the guilty?
(September 6, 2020 at 2:02 pm)Fake Messiah Wrote:
(September 6, 2020 at 10:12 am)Vicki Q Wrote: He jumped on the bandwagon after Damascus Road.

Paul's miraculous conversion story on Damascus Road is lifted from Euripides' play The Bacchae. Like Paul, the play’s villain Pentheus persecutes the cult of Dionysus. However, also like Paul, despite himself, he is ironically converted to the faith to by an unwelcome personal epiphany of the wine god. Peter and Paul’s miraculous prison breaks in Acts also feature the same thrilling escapades as Euripides’ play, written roughly 500 years earlier. Both include miraculous unlocking of chains and handy earthquakes.

Writer of Acts even quotes the play when in a scene where Jesus, the bright light from heaven, speaks to Paul/Saul, saying to him: “Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? It is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.” Because “kick against the pricks” line is spoken by Dionysus in the play.

So? Similar phrases don't mean one story was lifted from the other, lol.

Is it wrong to just say that Paul may have had a vision (or that he claimed he had a vision) but it doesn't mean he actually saw a resurrected Jesus, only that it was a vision?

Can we see the context in which the phrase you speak of was said, btw? Line number please. I have a translated Bacchae text available right now.

Also, we don't have any source to indicate Jesus was ever thought to be a wine god by Paul or the other early Christians.
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RE: Would Jesus promote punishing the innocent instead of the guilty?
(September 6, 2020 at 2:59 pm)Grandizer Wrote: Can we see the context in which the phrase you speak of was said, btw? Line number please. I have a translated Bacchae text available right now.

Sure, in some translations of The Bacchae and the Acts the word "pricks" is translated into "goads".
So you have Dionysus, free from prison, telling Pentheus, “Don’t kick against the goad – a man against a god,” just like in Acts 26:14 “Why are you persecuting me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads”
And it also comes after familiar scene where Paul, Dionysus comes to be imprisoned. Not recognized as a divine figure, King Pentheus of Thebes locked him in chains until he could demonstrate that Dionysus is just the wild imaginary figure of repressed women. An earthquake, however, soon rattles the city and Dionysus emerges, chains shed, to the astonishment of Pentheus.
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
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RE: Would Jesus promote punishing the innocent instead of the guilty?
(September 6, 2020 at 4:16 pm)Fake Messiah Wrote:
(September 6, 2020 at 2:59 pm)Grandizer Wrote: Can we see the context in which the phrase you speak of was said, btw? Line number please. I have a translated Bacchae text available right now.

Sure, in some translations of The Bacchae and the Acts the word "pricks" is translated into "goads".
So you have Dionysus, free from prison, telling Pentheus, “Don’t kick against the goad – a man against a god,”  just like in  Acts 26:14 “Why are you persecuting me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads”
And it also comes after familiar scene where Paul, Dionysus comes to be imprisoned. Not recognized as a divine figure, King Pentheus of Thebes locked him in chains until he could demonstrate that Dionysus is just the wild imaginary figure of repressed women. An earthquake, however, soon rattles the city and Dionysus emerges, chains shed, to the astonishment of Pentheus.

Thanks, but imprisonment happening in two accounts is hardly a remarkable similarity. And phrases like the one you quoted could easily be found in multiple accounts without there having to the case that one must have been lifted from another.

Based on what you described, the account isn't so remarkably similar to anything to do with Paul's account so that the conclusion of plagiarism or whatever is then warranted.

ETA: I missed the earthquake bit. While interesting similarity, this may just simply be a common trope in ancient stories, but it's possible this bit may have been influenced by the Bacchae, hard to tell. Either way, Paul did claim he had a vision, even if the account in Acts then exaggerates and borrows stuff.
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RE: Would Jesus promote punishing the innocent instead of the guilty?
-and hercules claims that his family was killed by cerberus. The damascas road incident as told in new magic book isn't history. It's, as you say, a set of tropes that the audience would have been familiar with. The plagiarism is untroubling just like it will be on netflix's next formulaic hit. The author of the authentic pauline epistles became a christian somehow, sure. Those details are theologically important, not historically important - or even remotely accurate.

(September 6, 2020 at 10:12 am)Vicki Q Wrote: Have you got this the wrong way round? The Paul of academic consensus was both Jewish, and a theologian. Here is the link to Wikipedia to confirm that.

I you think he's an ideological polemicist, against that consensus, could you give your evidence? Thanks.

-as before, you'll believe that the "x of academic consensus" is the x of your beliefs regardless of what the academic consensus actually is..and more importantly, isn't.  

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RE: Would Jesus promote punishing the innocent instead of the guilty?
Yeah, Rabbis find Paul being a Jewish theologian/ scholar/ pharisee laughable


teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
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RE: Would Jesus promote punishing the innocent instead of the guilty?
(July 26, 2020 at 2:38 pm)Greatest I am Wrote: Would Jesus promote punishing the innocent instead of the guilty?
 
Christians seem to think that Jesus took the punishment for sinners with his sacrifice/suicide on the cross. IOW, Christians see Jesus as asking Christians to abdicate their responsibility for their own sins and punishments.
 
If humans asked that, it would be considered quite immoral and unjust. All courts try hard to punish the guilty and not the innocent.
 
These quotes are what I think Jesus would have taught on this issue, him being a Jewish Rabbi.
 
Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
 
Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.
 
Psa 49;7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:
 
There is no way that Christians would teach their children to use a scapegoat to escape their just punishments, yet Christians are doing just that in trying to use Jesus as their scapegoat.
 
Regards
DL

what is so hard about putting things in context? read the whole chapter as all of it frames out a very specific use of the law. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...ersion=NIV  ezk is speaking about living with the law of the ot jews. the jews had a tradition that said if a poor man commited a sin/crime that cost a rich family everything, the poor man was to give his life over and if there was still debt owed the sons would also be responsible.. in chapter 18 ezk is saying each man is responsible for his own sin. living and dying here is not of the soul but in this life. remember some sin required the death of the sinner or an atoning sacrifice/blood or burnt offering. deu say basically the same thing. each man is responsible for their own sin/recogning 

In christianity all sinners die physically to because that is the wage or what is owed for their sin. however there will be a resurrection and judgement for the soul, which ezk the psalm or deu have anything to say about. 

The atonement sacrifice is also apart of the ot law. this is how a man redeemed himself in the OT by killing a sheep bird ect.. in NT christianity Jesus becomes that sacrifice.

like it or not two different religions. same frame work completely different rule set.
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RE: Would Jesus promote punishing the innocent instead of the guilty?
(September 9, 2020 at 10:47 am)Drich Wrote: like it or not two different religions. same frame work completely different rule set.

According to whom and why?
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RE: Would Jesus promote punishing the innocent instead of the guilty?
(September 9, 2020 at 10:47 am)Drich Wrote:
(July 26, 2020 at 2:38 pm)Greatest I am Wrote: Would Jesus promote punishing the innocent instead of the guilty?
 
Christians seem to think that Jesus took the punishment for sinners with his sacrifice/suicide on the cross. IOW, Christians see Jesus as asking Christians to abdicate their responsibility for their own sins and punishments.
 
If humans asked that, it would be considered quite immoral and unjust. All courts try hard to punish the guilty and not the innocent.
 
These quotes are what I think Jesus would have taught on this issue, him being a Jewish Rabbi.
 
Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
 
Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.
 
Psa 49;7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:
 
There is no way that Christians would teach their children to use a scapegoat to escape their just punishments, yet Christians are doing just that in trying to use Jesus as their scapegoat.
 
Regards
DL

what is so hard about putting things in context? read the whole chapter as all of it frames out a very specific use of the law. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...ersion=NIV  ezk is speaking about living with the law of the ot jews. the jews had a tradition that said if a poor man commited a sin/crime that cost a rich family everything, the poor man was to give his life over and if there was still debt owed the sons would also be responsible.. in chapter 18 ezk is saying each man is responsible for his own sin. living and dying here is not of the soul but in this life. remember some sin required the death of the sinner or an atoning sacrifice/blood or burnt offering. deu say basically the same thing. each man is responsible for their own sin/recogning 

In christianity all sinners die physically to because that is the wage or what is owed for their sin. however there will be a resurrection and judgement for the soul, which ezk the psalm or deu have anything to say about. 

The atonement sacrifice is also apart of the ot law. this is how a man redeemed himself in the OT by killing a sheep bird ect.. in NT christianity Jesus becomes that sacrifice.

like it or not two different religions. same frame work completely different rule set.

Did you note the Jewish law I quoted that you said was a part of Christianity?

You do not seem to care that Christians are breaking the Jewish law and immorally punishing the innocent instead of the guilty.

That vile theology is what Bishop Spong says will kill Christianity.

The sooner the better.

Regards
DL
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