No dark matter?

[Wormhole199]

Quraan also tells us the angels travel in 1 earth day the same distance as the moon in 10,000 years, if you derive a speed from there the answer is 299,999.457m/s. So if the book written 1400 yrs ago tells me that, then when it says angels regulate the stars, i believe it.

Nice try, but false.
Firstly, one of the observable quantities you need to make that calculation is the average orbital radius of the moon. Since your value is given to 9 significant figures, it must follow that you know the average lunar orbital radius to the same number of significant figures. And we simply don't know it to that degree of precision.

Secondly, let's actually do the calculation.
Taking the average lunar orbital radius as 0.38 megametres and the orbital period as 27.3 days, all you need to do is find the circumference of the moons orbit, 2*pi*r, multiply by 10000years(converted to days)/27.3days to get the number of orbits in 10000 years and divide that by the number of seconds in a day.

What you get is 3.3*10^9, which is 10 times too large. For a more accurate calculation you would also need to account for the motion of the earth around the sun, and the motion of the sun around the galactic centre, which would only increase the distance travelled by the moon, thus increasing your calculated speed.

It is 10 times too large because alemcodon copied it wrong. It is 1000 not 10,000.

The speed of light is something I NEVER heard any imam mention.

http://www.speed-light.info/angels_speed_of_light.htm

There is a link to the proper calculation, it has to be calculated outside of gravitational forces.

How can you calculate how far the moon will move without gravity?
Gravity is what makes it move...

It is about the effect of gravity on frames of reference. 299792.458 km/sec is the measured speed of light in local inertial frames. So if you want to make a comparison with "299792.458 km/sec" then you have to make it in a "local inertial frame". You never even defined your frame of reference.

You can challenge the physics here: http://www.speed-light.info/speed_of_light_12000.htm

[lilphil1989]

Of course, what was I thinking?!

The quran very clearly states the einstein field equations, and predicts the speed of light accurately and in the most unambiguous way imaginable!

[theVOID]

It is about the effect of gravity on frames of reference. 299792.458 km/sec is the measured speed of light in local inertial frames. So if you want to make a comparison with "299792.458 km/sec" then you have to make it in a "local inertial frame". You never even defined your frame of reference.

That's bs, c is the same from all frames of reference.

The Quran insists on seven superimposed heavens; every Moslem knows this. We are in the lowest heaven, Angels are in the seventh, and Satan (Jinn) is in one heaven in-between. However all seven heavens are superimposed. There are two angels at your shoulders right now. The Quran says that we cannot see them nor collide with them but we can detect their gravity. However these are the exact same properties of Dark Matter, we cannot see them nor collide with them however we can detect their gravity. String Theory explains what they are: They are mass in another dimension.

1. Dark matter is right here in our 3 dimensions, not 'seeping' through a higher dimension.
2. There is no dark matter on my shoulder.
3. There are 11 dimensions in M-Theory, not 7.

And where in the Quran does it say that we can detect angels by their gravity?

[Wormhole199]

And where in the Quran does it say that we can detect angels by their gravity?

[Quran 55.31] We [Allah] will settle your affair, both you of weight (man and jinn)

The Jinn have weight means that we can detect their gravity and they can detect our gravity. We are in the lowest heaven, Angels are in the seventh, and Satan (Jinn) is in one heaven in-between. However all seven heavens are superimposed. We do not see them, we do not collide with them but we can detect their gravity.

3. There are 11 dimensions in M-Theory, not 7.

In all 5 versions of String Theory there are 10 dimensions: "Time" plus the usual three spatial dimensions x,y,z (4 dimensions, our heaven) plus six extra spatial dimensions making a total of ten dimensions (1 time + 9 spatial = 10 dimensions). Other competing theories like M-Theory has one extra spatial dimension (making the total 11 dimensions), however this extra spatial dimension is for the description of strings themselves (whether a string is a one-dimensional object like a thread, or whether a string is a rolled up two-dimensional membrane like a tube). In any case, in all currently competing theories, this Dark Matter is strings vibrating in six extra spatial dimensions. The missing six heavens in the Quran are the six extra spatial dimensions in modern physics.

[alemcodon]

LOL!!

then Nostradamus predicted the diameter of my anal sphincter.

Im sure he said something about it being a 3 day journy by horse to the other side.....

I never said the quraan disproves dark matter, i was basically querying its legitamacy and how so called 'men of knowledge' cant see an element of design everywhere and still fail to acknowledge the existence of a creator.

The speed of light website/author is very good, when talking about and theorising about the speed of light, but anything else, about string theories/wormholes etc i cant really agree with, maybe he was thinking too hard and too fast and trying to find a relationship with what modern scientists accept as 'fact' - but is as yet a long way from proven.

maybe there are other dimensions, and strings...but it cant be proven, therefore we cant use the quraan as reference of 'miracle/explanation' of it since it can never be proven.

The speed of light on the other hand we do know, and if you calculate the 12,000 lunar orbits divide 1 day = even without the gravity you get close to the speed.

im not the type of person that would believe anything unless there were solid facts to support it, strings and wormholes and dimensions, there will never be solid facts to support it, so as muslims, we shouldnt be referencing the quraan to these matters.

speed of light - yes
expanding universe - yes
time/light relationship/distortion - yes

theres a story, 'the night journy', where muhammed allegedly visited the heavens, he was taken on horse called 'lightning', he went to jersulum, then to heaven then to hell, he described the whole experiance as an 8-9 hour ordeal but when he got back home his bed was still warm and like he never left.

To me this correlates the relationship between light and time, he travelled at the speed of light, on a horse made of light, and time was distorted, but not just distorted, correctly distorted as the light/time theories would suggest. If you travel at the speed of light, time for everyone else around you would move more slowly, effectively virtually a standstill, where time for the traveller continues as 'normal'...

he was also said to have travelled through the various levels of heaven in his cimmunication with god, and moses and jesus. i dont think they are super imposed dimensions, theres another verse int he quraan that says when you look at night one of those stars we see is the heavens...so it IS a physical place we can currently see, NOT in another dimension. same as hell...muhammed visited, hell, he described it as a massive chamber, with various levels for various types of sinners with gates and doors etc. All the 7 levels are contained within this single complex. hell is already been built and awaiting mankind somewhere in this universe, the quraan describes how on the day of judgement hell will be bought to earth for the humans to hitch a ride (people like me and you). it will have 70,000 wrens each with 70,000 angels dragging it across space towards earth.

Another not very well known hadith (not authenticated by scholars) muhammed said the fire of hell was;-

kindled for a thousands years until it became red...
then kindled for another thousand years until it became white...
then kindled for another thousands years until it became black...

fire -> red giant, white dwarf, black hole?

in terms of detecting angels gravity i dont agree with that either, angels are made from light, does light have gravity? there are also many types of angels, they are not like humans - ie one species, some angels are massive and performing tasks on a galactic level, whereas other are small and merely recording events.

Maybe there are domensions, but its not something we can use a proof for the quraan, until it is proven there are dimensions....

During the night journy- muhammed was travelling at the speed of light for 3-4 hours each way? how far in our solar system would that take you? does that mean the 'heavens' are within our solar system?

there is another verse that says mankind will travel to the heavens and beyond but they will not know it. maybe heaven could be within our solar system in these other planets, jupitor, saturn, what is actually inside these is still and always wil be a complete mystery.

there are many other scientific proofs in the quraan, some people will dismiss them as ballava, others wont, but they are more relaible to use then string theories and wormholes

ie the iron miracle
the mathematical miracles
water for all life
elements of life
thunder formation
water cycle
mountains pegs
waves within waves in the oceans
embryology
medical benefits of honey
fly carries disease in one wing and cure in the another

the list goes on.....

But to put it simplythe quraan says....

'they ask thee concerning signs from your lord, where are your proofs?
look around you, the sun, the moon, the life around you, these are the signs for men of knowledge'

By the way i just wanna say hello to Marie, why are you stalking me around in various forums?
At least in this forum people try to use their intellect to dispute others claims instead of removing my posts and then accusing me of being a fake muslim and making islam loook bad??? and this coming from a moderator on an anti islamic forum - who banned me for making islam look bad???.. when your whole life revolves around making islam look bad...then how come all those other members who swear and curse for a living aint been banned or posts not removed eh???

I repeat.... the truth is i exposed your blatant lies, your blatant misquotes and mistranslations and i explained each and every one of your accusations, made you and your pals look like the fools you are, thats why you banned me, but you cant ban me from here....maybe give the mod here a bj and a muff dive....

you can bury the truth in as much shit as you want, but when you remove the shit, the truth is still there.

[theVOID]

In all 5 versions of String Theory there are 10 dimensions:

There haven't been 5 versions of string theory for WELL OVER A DECADE! It was discovered that all 5 theories were different ways of describing the same thing, and that when they considered 11 dimensions rather than 10 the theories all converged on the same answers - That is why we now have M-THEORY.

"Time" plus the usual three spatial dimensions x,y,z (4 dimensions, our heaven) plus six extra spatial dimensions making a total of ten dimensions (1 time + 9 spatial = 10 dimensions).

And you're STILL 1 short.

Other competing theories like M-Theory has one extra spatial dimension (making the total 11 dimensions

You really don't know shit about physics do you?

M-Theory is NOT a competing theory, it is the AMALGAMATION of the previous 5 'string theories'.

"In the mid 1990s a unification of all previous superstring theories, called M-theory, was proposed, which asserted that strings are really 1-dimensional slices of a 2-dimensional membrane vibrating in 11-dimensional spacetime."

however this extra spatial dimension is for the description of strings themselves (whether a string is a one-dimensional object like a thread, or whether a string is a rolled up two-dimensional membrane like a tube).

All strings are 1 dimensional....

Oh, and you have 2 dimensional tubes now?

In any case, in all currently competing theories, this Dark Matter is strings vibrating in six extra spatial dimensions. The invisible six superimposed heavens in the Quran are the six extra spatial dimensions in modern physics.

No... Dark Matter are most likely WIMPS, normal matter particles that barely interact with other matter, as such they are called 'Dark' because they do not contribute to the electromagnetic spectrum and cannot be "seen".

[Quran 55.31] We [Allah] will settle your affair, both you of weight (man and jinn)

The Jinn have weight means that we can detect their gravity and they can detect our gravity. We are in the lowest heaven, Angels are in the seventh, and Satan (Jinn) is in one heaven in-between. However all seven heavens are superimposed. We do not see them, we do not collide with them but we can detect their gravity.

I am stunned by how stupid that is - You take some extremely ambiguous passage from the Quran saying that Man and Jinn have weight and use this to infer that Satan lives in a dimension "in between" ours and that of the angels and that we can detect his gravitational influence, and that is dark matter.

How retarded do you have to make yourself in order to feel justified in believing this crap? It's startling.

[Wormhole199]

You really don't know shit about physics do you?

Really? Aren't you the one who claimed that the speed of light is measured the same in all frames? Oh yes it is you:

It is about the effect of gravity on frames of reference. 299792.458 km/sec is the measured speed of light in local inertial frames. So if you want to make a comparison with "299792.458 km/sec" then you have to make it in a "local inertial frame". You never even defined your frame of reference.

That's bs, c is the same from all frames of reference.

Physics wise keep your mouth shut.

[lilphil1989]

LOL!!

then Nostradamus predicted the diameter of my anal sphincter.

Im sure he said something about it being a 3 day journy by horse to the other side.....

You can make it in 2 on an elephant.

speed of light - yes
expanding universe - yes
time/light relationship/distortion - yes

No, no and no. You're dishonestly interpreting vague verses to make it seem as though they predict these things when they actually do nothing of the sort.

To me this correlates the relationship between light and time, he travelled at the speed of light, on a horse made of light, and time was distorted, but not just distorted, correctly distorted as the light/time theories would suggest. If you travel at the speed of light, time for everyone else around you would move more slowly, effectively virtually a standstill, where time for the traveller continues as 'normal'...

Oh right, a horse made of light, thanks for clearing that up, it all makes perfect sense now.

there are also many types of angels, they are not like humans - ie one species, some angels are massive and performing tasks on a galactic level, whereas other are small and merely recording events.

How could you possibly know that?

i was basically querying... how so called 'men of knowledge' cant see an element of design everywhere and still fail to acknowledge the existence of a creator.

It's quite hard to see something that isn't there.

[Anomalocaris]

In all 5 versions of String Theory there are 10 dimensions: "Time" plus the usual three spatial dimensions x,y,z (4 dimensions, our heaven) plus six extra spatial dimensions making a total of ten dimensions (1 time + 9 spatial = 10 dimensions). Other competing theories like M-Theory has one extra spatial dimension (making the total 11 dimensions), however this extra spatial dimension is for the description of strings themselves (whether a string is a one-dimensional object like a thread, or whether a string is a rolled up two-dimensional membrane like a tube). In any case, in all currently competing theories, this Dark Matter is strings vibrating in six extra spatial dimensions. The missing six heavens in the Quran are the six extra spatial dimensions in modern physics.

[/align]

Will you swear on holy koran to burn your holy Koran if string theor(ies) is discredited?

[lilphil1989]

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You really don't know shit about physics do you?

Really? Aren't you the one who claimed that the speed of light is measured the same in all frames? Oh yes it is you:

It is about the effect of gravity on frames of reference. 299792.458 km/sec is the measured speed of light in local inertial frames. So if you want to make a comparison with "299792.458 km/sec" then you have to make it in a "local inertial frame". You never even defined your frame of reference.

That's bs, c is the same from all frames of reference.

Physics wise keep your mouth shut.

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Depends on whether you're considering coordinate time or proper time. Whilst it may be true that the coordinate speed of light can be non-constant for an observer in a non-inertial frame, any observer can always construct a locally inertial frame which Fermi-Walker transports along his world line such that the proper speed is constant.