The absurd need for logical proofs for God

[Angrboda]

Creation doesn't necessarily indicate design.  If it does, then your concept of design is also vacuous.  In that case "design" is not a property, and your entire argument collapses.  You're anthropomorphizing your god, which IIRC, is a no-no in Islam.

I think you misunderstand what my concept of design actually is; it is creation itself. I don't draw any distinction between clever combinations of matter/nature [e.g. machines] and matter/nature in its initial form. But you do, so you are the one who has problems with the concept of design here, not me.

So, then if God randomly created a universe, you're arguing that's an example of design? And you're saying your concept of design isn't vacuous?

It also occurs to me that God didn't create anything either, but simply converted his potency into matter.  Without the raw material of God's potency, there would be no matter.

Nonsense. Potency is a property of God, not some material external to God. An omnipotent God, by his potency -rather than (((converts))) potency-, creates matter ex nihilo.

Your only way out is to somehow prove that ex nihilo creation is logically impossible. Good luck.

I didn't say anything about externality. I'm simply pointing out that if human design is not really design because it requires something that exists prior to its designing act, then God isn't capable of design either because he must exist before he can create matter. If making use of something that already exists is design, then God qualifies; but then so does human design. Or are you arguing that God's potency isn't something that God has?

The long and short of it is that God didn't create the universe. The universe already existed. At the time, the universe only consisted of God. But if the universe hadn't already existed, God couldn't have created anything. His creation depends on something existing prior to his creation of the physical world, just as my creation depends on a pre-existence of rocks and matter. God's creation is no more privileged in an ontological sense than my creations.

"things that we call "designed" are combinations of this same matter, which clearly doesn't belong to us"

And God's creation is a combination of something that he didn't create as well. It's no different.

[Nay_Sayer]

Here is something to ponder about in why FSM is the one true supreme being.


Potency is a property of FSM, not some material external to FSM. An omnipotent FSM, by Xis potency -rather than (((converts))) potency-, creates matter ex nihilo.

Your only way out is to somehow prove that ex nihilo creation is logically impossible. Good luck.

[Fake Messiah]

Again, nothing excludes the possibility of a designer creating stuff through these very natural processes. Therefore, rocks and cliffs that follow these processes can be the intention of a designer all along, or at least a byproduct of his master plan.

What about lack of evidence? Doesn't that exclude intelligent designer?

And also, he's telling me "again" as if I didn't already tell you that for intelligently designed beings just humans have too many "designed" flaws such as 70% miscarriage rate which show that the so called designer is not very intelligent, or the fact that nature is constantly trying to kill us so that the smartest brains are working hard for centuries thinking up cures; or that it took nature over 13 billion years to "make" us which is quite long for some "master plan".

[The Architect Of Fate]

Again, nothing excludes the possibility of a designer creating stuff through these very natural processes. Therefore, rocks and cliffs that follow these processes can be the intention of a designer all along, or at least a byproduct of his master plan.

What about lack of evidence? Doesn't that exclude intelligent designer?

And also, he's telling me "again" as if I didn't already tell you that for intelligently designed beings just humans have too many "designed" flaws such as 70% miscarriage rate which show that the so called designer is not very intelligent, or the fact that nature is constantly trying to kill us so that the smartest brains are working hard for centuries thinking up cures; or that it took nature over 13 billion years to "make" us which is quite long for some "master plan".

He will just go back to the dumb argument "Who are you to tell God how to do X" of course that's not a real objection. As for the idea of God creating through natural processes. In other words, god creating is indistinguishable from naturally evolved and thus is worthless as an explanation.

[no one]

Not only does kloroform's elevator not get out of the basement, lt continually goes to lower and lower levels.

[Fake Messiah]

He will just go back to the dumb argument "Who are you to tell God how to do X" of course that's not a real objection.

He is the one saying that his God is acting intelligently while I say that that claim is very weak.

But it seems his problem is that his view is very narrow: he only sees things that he likes and then proclaims that the world is beautiful, and therefore designed. It's not much different than a flatearther looking from his point of view and proclaiming that Earth is flat, because Earth can look flat from a limited viewpoint, and even whole small nations in the past could believe that the Earth is flat, but when you start considering other things and looking at the bigger picture you see it's not flat.

You could even say that concluding how Earth is flat is intuitive, while realizing that Earth is a sphere is counterintuitive, and you could perhaps say it's same with the intelligent design: that at first glance world looks intelligently designed, but as you think about it and look at the whole picture, you realize that the so called designer is very blind, drunk, mean, without a plan and incompetent.