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Are religions that preach inequality for women and gays, traitors to their country?
RE: Are religions that preach inequality for women and gays, traitors to their country?
(January 28, 2021 at 5:26 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote:
(January 28, 2021 at 4:15 pm)Greatest I am Wrote: Got to be careful with the word sacred. Christians think it applies to their vile satanic god.
The word very explicitly applies to anything and everything any person holds a genuine belief as-such in.  

That we might take issue with some other persons sacred does not change the fact that it is what is sacred to them.  

Quote:I agree that Jesus should not be called Christ as he was never officially anointed. 

The facts of which Jesus and Christ?

There are more than one archetypal Jesus in scriptures.

Too long to show here but there is the Roman creation. The wimp who sucks their tit, and there is the esoteric ecumenist and more mystical Jesus who somehow was not edited out.

Christianity never quotes that Gnostic Jesus, but when we Gnostic Christians do, Christians run away.

Regards
DL

If you have no belief in christ either literally or metaphorically - then you are in no way a christian, let alone a gnostic christian.  

The romans came up with alot of things, we'll have to do better than that - same with sucking tits.  To believe in the myth of a moral jesus is to believe in something just as superstitious as a dying and rising god.

Not when you see Jesus as just a mantra to gain gnosis and use him the way the scribes want us to.

Do you see Buddhists as believing in the way Buddha taught as their believing in superstition and the supernatural when they do not believe in such things, given that Buddha is just a man and not a god?

Do you believe in meditation?

You are correct on belief in a moral Jesus if you are looking at the Roman construct.

There is no way that that Jesus ends in being moral, given the Armageddon genocide he promised to use when he returns.

Does the Jesus you know speak like this.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

What is that single eye if not pure mysticism of the more Eastern meditation religions?

Regards
DL
Reply
RE: Are religions that preach inequality for women and gays, traitors to their country?
(January 28, 2021 at 5:42 pm)Greatest I am Wrote: Not when you see Jesus as just a mantra to gain gnosis and use him the way the scribes want us to.
Moral jesus as metaphoric christ. A superstitious belief.  

Quote:Do you see Buddhists as believing in the way Buddha taught as their believing in superstition and the supernatural when they do not believe in such things, given that Buddha is just a man and not a god?
Buddhists hold a great many superstitious beliefs, yes.  

Quote:Do you believe in meditation?
Meditation exists, no belief is required.  

Quote:You are correct on belief in a moral Jesus if you are looking at the Roman construct.

There is no way that that Jesus ends in being moral, given the Armageddon genocide he promised to use when he returns.

Regards
DL

Regards
DL

Again, calling something roman does not rise to the level of rational criticism. Promising armageddon isn't the only questionable item in the narrative.

For convenience and clarity, proceed on the assumption that, in my opinion, nothing that anyone has ever written on any cave wall anywhere about anything determines any moral fact of any matter.

That -all of that- is completely irrelevant to the subject of moral fact right on it's face, and any belief to the contrary will very likely be regarded by myself as deeply superstitious thinking. No "but my scribes in my magic book from my true religion say" argument will be compelling to me, because no such argument can manage to be relevant in the first place. Nothing about the facts of any of your superstitions, true or false, or of the others guys being false as you contend or true as they contend, have any effect on any moral position I would recognize.

Even in the impossible event that you all managed to agree on some set of moral claims that accommodated all of your various religious beliefs and superstitions - that would still fail to resolve a single iota of moral import for me. In my opinion, all of you are looking for something in a place that it cannot be found, even when we assume that place actually exists - which I very much don't, lol, and especially if we assume the thing itself exists, which I very much do.

Put much, much more simply, it isn't because either of you have gotten your religion wrong that you've gotten your morality wrong - quite the reverse. As a demonstration of that, I'll refer you to the attempt in thread to weakly peddle natural law™ and eternalism in the same manner to the same end, just pointed at different people.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
RE: Are religions that preach inequality for women and gays, traitors to their country?
(January 28, 2021 at 5:44 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote:
(January 28, 2021 at 5:42 pm)Greatest I am Wrote: Not when you see Jesus as just a mantra to gain gnosis and use him the way the scribes want us to.
Moral jesus as metaphoric christ.  A superstitious belief.  

Quote:Do you see Buddhists as believing in the way Buddha taught as their believing in superstition and the supernatural when they do not believe in such things, given that Buddha is just a man and not a god?
Buddhists hold a great many superstitious beliefs, yes.  

Quote:Do you believe in meditation?
Meditation exists, no belief is required.  

Quote:You are correct on belief in a moral Jesus if you are looking at the Roman construct.

There is no way that that Jesus ends in being moral, given the Armageddon genocide he promised to use when he returns.

Regards
DL

Regards
DL

Again, calling something roman does not rise to the level of rational criticism.  Promising armageddon isn't the only questionable item in the narrative.

For convenience and clarity, proceed on the assumption that, in my opinion, nothing that anyone has ever written on any cave wall anywhere about anything determines any moral fact of any matter.  

That -all of that- is completely irrelevant to the subject of moral fact right on it's face, and any belief to the contrary will very likely be regarded by myself as deeply superstitious thinking.  No "but my scribes in my magic book from my true religion say" argument will be compelling to me, because no such argument can manage to be relevant in the first place.  Nothing about the facts of any of your superstitions, true or false, or of the others guys being false as you contend or true as they contend, have any effect on any moral position I would recognize.

Even in the impossible event that you all managed to agree on some set of moral claims that accommodated all of your various religious beliefs and superstitions - that would still fail to resolve a single iota of moral import for me.  In my opinion, all of you are looking for something in a place that it cannot be found, even when we assume that place actually exists - which I very much don't, lol, and especially if we assume the thing itself exists, which I very much do.

Put much, much more simply, it isn't because either of you have gotten your religion wrong that you've gotten your morality wrong - quite the reverse.  As a demonstration of that, I'll refer you to the attempt in thread to weakly peddle natural law™ and eternalism in the same manner to the same end, just pointed at different people.

I don't know what you mean by moral fact.

The way I read the definitions for morals and ethics is that morals are the thinking part of an issue or tenet while ethics are the actions produced by the thinking.

Show an example of what you mean by moral fact.

Regards
DL
Reply
RE: Are religions that preach inequality for women and gays, traitors to their country?
If you don't know what I mean by moral fact that's perfectly fine, and there may be no moral facts, after all.

However, that effects your morality as "thinking on an issue" and your ethics as "actions produced". Your moral condemnation of contemporary christianity, for example, not a fact based action arising out of having thought about facts, if you don't know what I mean by moral facts. Actually couldn't be, even if you got it right (and there were a right to get). That would just be accidental.

An assertion to moral fact would be something like - The unnatural is wrong. The natural is good. Not all assertions of moral fact are facts (or even genuinely apprehended as such by their asserters), as we've seen - if any are. The question you posed can be interpreted as thinking about an issue, and can be answered by reference to facts of that issue, which would be actions informed by facts of the issue - but only if we allow for those things to be facts to begin with. Do you want to say that you can't believe contemporary christianity? That you personally detest it? That your society rejects it?

Or that there is, in fact, something wrong with it?

-skepticism, subjectivism, relativism, objectivism

I think that the relativist objection is probably pretty easy to make. Our society does reject anything which rejects our values - and, at least institutionally, it rejects the sorts of discrimination and harm that you might refer to. Or, at least, it did - they've been chipping away at that very successfully. To people who are skeptical that relativist measures like this describe something meaningful enough to base a moral sense on...however, these facts may stick the asserted landing - but only in a trivial (and perhaps not entirely accurate or, if we prefer, thoroughly representative) sense. The same people who could very soberly consider the notion, without reference to any superstition, could easily allow for a situation where some religion (maybe the target of your ire, maybe another) would compel a person to acts or ideology which a state might deem treasonous - it's not as if it's never happened before, but if that's all we're considering, relativistic facts of a society - so what?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
RE: Are religions that preach inequality for women and gays, traitors to their country?
(January 28, 2021 at 7:13 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote:   Our society does reject anything which rejects our values - 

??

I disagree.

We and our governments value equality and not discriminating against gays and women without a just cause.

We have not rejected the vile religions that preach directly against our civil law and who promote homophobia and misogyny.

Regards
DL
Reply
RE: Are religions that preach inequality for women and gays, traitors to their country?
(January 29, 2021 at 2:43 pm)Greatest I am Wrote: ??

I disagree.

We and our governments value equality and not discriminating against gays and women without a just cause.

Then you don't disagree.

Quote:We have not rejected the vile religions that preach directly against our civil law and who promote homophobia and misogyny.

Regards
DL
Because we think that rejection would be worse than accommodation.  I think that's true to a point, and I think we've passed that point...but...society at large does not think we've passed that point.

Are they traitors? Yes. Are we ready to do what we've done to traitors in the past? No. Is that a bad thing?.........ish.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
RE: Are religions that preach inequality for women and gays, traitors to their country?
(January 30, 2021 at 12:24 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote:
(January 29, 2021 at 2:43 pm)Greatest I am Wrote: ??

I disagree.

We and our governments value equality and not discriminating against gays and women without a just cause.

Then you don't disagree.

Quote:We have not rejected the vile religions that preach directly against our civil law and who promote homophobia and misogyny.

Regards
DL
Because we think that rejection would be worse than accommodation.  I think that's true to a point, and I think we've passed that point...but...society at large does not think we've passed that point.

Are they traitors?  Yes.   Are we ready to do what we've done to traitors in the past?  No.  Is that a bad thing?.........ish.

Jail or death would be overreacting to unloyalty of this type.

I would think that our political system might at least claw back the tax breaks we reward those same a hole religions with.

In the Roman days, those Christians would have died for putting their law above the law of those who protected them.

Regards
DL
Reply
RE: Are religions that preach inequality for women and gays, traitors to their country?
Interestingly enough, some of the earliest opponents in America of tax exemptions for churches were Methodists and Baptists - they were worried that they might not be treated fairly by the government if they didn’t contribute to its support. Similarly, they also opposed a general tax that would go to support churches.

My, how things have changed!

Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
Reply
RE: Are religions that preach inequality for women and gays, traitors to their country?
(January 30, 2021 at 6:05 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Interestingly enough, some of the earliest opponents in America of tax exemptions for churches were Methodists and Baptists - they were worried that they might not be treated fairly by the government if they didn’t contribute to its support. Similarly, they also opposed a general tax that would go to support churches.

My, how things have changed!

Boru

Yes.

In the old days, I do not see atheists taking kindly to the religionists hand in his pocket.

Strange that new atheists are not inclined to end that injustice much.

Regards
DL
Reply
RE: Are religions that preach inequality for women and gays, traitors to their country?
(February 8, 2021 at 4:56 pm)Greatest I am Wrote:
(January 30, 2021 at 6:05 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Interestingly enough, some of the earliest opponents in America of tax exemptions for churches were Methodists and Baptists - they were worried that they might not be treated fairly by the government if they didn’t contribute to its support. Similarly, they also opposed a general tax that would go to support churches.

My, how things have changed!

Boru

Yes.

In the old days, I do not see atheists taking kindly to the religionists hand in his pocket.

Strange that new atheists are not inclined to end that injustice much.

Regards
DL

Atheists - by and large - are very MUCH inclined  to end state support for religion, it’s a question of ginning up enough political support to make it happen.

Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
Reply



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