Problem dealing with death as an atheist

[diffidus]

This argument can be ramped up even more. Lets take a strictly scientific view: All human beings are made from atoms and these atoms are rather commomplace. In otherwords, there are no special carbon atoms in your body. If they were all replaced with some other carbon atoms it would have no effect on either the functioning of your body or your personality.

Now assume the special computer copies your body atom for atom and reconstructs a truly atomic clone of your body. Since every atom is the same, then the brain of the clone would be identical to your brain with every memory and sensation intact. Scientifically speaking this must be the same person as the original. But since, scientifically speaking, one person cannot be in two bodies at the same time, we are at a point of contradiction. One obvious explanation is that there exists another substance which, unlike the commonplace atoms, such as carbon, is in fact unique and cannot be copied. This would resolve the contradiction. Is this the basis of the belief in a human soul?

I would say that right at the moment of waking up, they are the same person. Not in the sense that they are one thing, but they are exactly the same, yes. The moment they wake up and start processing things around them in just the slightest different way, they become different. However, the base is still the same.

And yes, I believe that if I were to be cloned in that way, the clone would be the same person as I would be. Only through continued living and amssing different experiences we'd grow apart and become different persons.
The point is that the question 'what makes me ME' is not a scientific one, really. It is more philosofical. And that means that you'll get as many answers as there are people.

Diffidus:

This is strange! Suppose the computer disassembled your body atom for atom and then re-assembled ten versions of you atom for atom using a different pile of commonplace atoms. Which one is the original you?

On your argument, you might suppose that for an instance you exist in a state of being all ten copies. But then in the next instance, you find yourself conscious in one of the ten clones. This means that the probability of the original 'you' being in a given clone at the end of the process is one in 10 i.e. 0.1.

Now suppose we continue this thought experiment from the start and clone 100 versions of you. Now, for an instant you exist in all 100 versions but, in the next instant, you find your original self in clone number 36. This is odd! The probability of being in a copy has reduced to 0.01. It seems the probability of you actually becoming conscious in a clone depends upon the number of clones???. Even worse, what is this 'original you' that is jumping into a given clone??

The concept of a human soul, as a unique substance, explains these difficulties. No copy of 'you' can be made without this extra addition. Is this not what it feels like to be alive, to experience this world as a truly unique and special subjective existence? Is this why consciousness evades any scientific explanation?

I do not believe science has any obvious answers to these issues. But, recent theories, such as String Theory, suggest time and space may consist of eleven dimensions. The usual four space time dimensions and a further seven dimensions that are completely invisible to measurement. Is it possible that the universe is composed, not just of commonplace atoms such as carbon, but of unique substances that reside in dimensions that are outside our radar?

I agree that these questions are perplexing but I am far from ruling out the possibility that the soul exists and that it may, in fact, be the best explanation.

[DanielSchaffiro]

I've been dealing with an issue that I believe only atheists could really help me with, and so I came across these forums. I just joined, and after a quick browse didn't see my issue anywhere, so I apologize if this is a repeat topic.

Anyway. I'll do my best to explain my issue:
I'm an atheist and I also have a few problems with depression and anxiety. My problem, however, is that I've recently developed a MAJOR "fear" of death.

Specifically, I am convinced, beyond a doubt, that there is no existence after death. I am 100% convinced that when I die, there will be nothingness... no afterlife, no me, no thoughts, no blackness, no sleep, nor any ability to think. I won't even know I died, and I won't even be able to acknowledge that I don't know I died. At this moment, I feel like I really understand what that means, and I am deeply deeply disturbed by it. I'm not sure how to cope with it. I can keep it out of my mind for short periods of time, but ultimately I'll read an article about someone dying, see a news report, and so on and start thinking about it again.

If anyone has any advice or thoughts or hopefully some sort of solution to my problem, I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks.

I'm a necrophobic (fear of death or death related things). My specific phobia has to do with corpses, but I think it will still serve a purpose here. Also, I am joining this discussion late and haven't read the many pages of replies, so I may be going over things already mentioned. Sorry, if that's the case.

Anyway, when I see a corpse, it elicits a high level of stress in me that's brought on by the fear of nothingness. That is, dead body = nothing, no life. I have only been an atheist for the last couple of years, but the fear has plagued me since I was a small child. I realized something after I became an atheist, and it turns out it's along the same lines as a famous quote. I think it was Mark Twain who said, I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it. Basically, if the thought of not existing BEFORE my life doesn't bother me, why should the thought of not existing AFTER my life be any more worrisome?

I suppose one argument might be that we came into existence (and therefore consciousness) gradually, and we'll be going out relatively quickly. But that still does not address the issue of not existing. Both before and after life, we were non existent. So to me, it gives me comfort knowing that my final resting place will be oblivion. Heaven and hell exist simultaneously on the same plane...this world. In one sense, as long as you look for the positive things in life, you're in heaven. But once you realize you're about to die, you can see it as leaving behind all the hell this world dished out...and no longer can it harm you! That, my friend, is UTTER PEACE!

[Carnavon]

---

I've been dealing with an issue that I believe only atheists could really help me with, and so I came across these forums. I just joined, and after a quick browse didn't see my issue anywhere, so I apologize if this is a repeat topic.

Anyway. I'll do my best to explain my issue:
I'm an atheist and I also have a few problems with depression and anxiety. My problem, however, is that I've recently developed a MAJOR "fear" of death.

Specifically, I am convinced, beyond a doubt, that there is no existence after death. I am 100% convinced that when I die, there will be nothingness... no afterlife, no me, no thoughts, no blackness, no sleep, nor any ability to think. I won't even know I died, and I won't even be able to acknowledge that I don't know I died. At this moment, I feel like I really understand what that means, and I am deeply deeply disturbed by it. I'm not sure how to cope with it. I can keep it out of my mind for short periods of time, but ultimately I'll read an article about someone dying, see a news report, and so on and start thinking about it again.

If anyone has any advice or thoughts or hopefully some sort of solution to my problem, I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks.

I'm a necrophobic (fear of death or death related things). My specific phobia has to do with corpses, but I think it will still serve a purpose here. Also, I am joining this discussion late and haven't read the many pages of replies, so I may be going over things already mentioned. Sorry, if that's the case.

Anyway, when I see a corpse, it elicits a high level of stress in me that's brought on by the fear of nothingness. That is, dead body = nothing, no life. I have only been an atheist for the last couple of years, but the fear has plagued me since I was a small child. I realized something after I became an atheist, and it turns out it's along the same lines as a famous quote. I think it was Mark Twain who said, I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it. Basically, if the thought of not existing BEFORE my life doesn't bother me, why should the thought of not existing AFTER my life be any more worrisome?

I suppose one argument might be that we came into existence (and therefore consciousness) gradually, and we'll be going out relatively quickly. But that still does not address the issue of not existing. Both before and after life, we were non existent. So to me, it gives me comfort knowing that my final resting place will be oblivion. Heaven and hell exist simultaneously on the same plane...this world. In one sense, as long as you look for the positive things in life, you're in heaven. But once you realize you're about to die, you can see it as leaving behind all the hell this world dished out...and no longer can it harm you! That, my friend, is UTTER PEACE!

---

The hell "this world" dished out also dished out some fantastic blessings, isn't it? It is often the case that the "hell" we experience has positive consequences in the long run - whether it be building of character, learning patience or anything that has a positive effect in our own lives or that of others. As an example, the way we carry our "burden" may act as encouragement for those experiencing trials in their own lives. There is hope yet!

[BethK]

Hmm..all of those times you were flat lined, did you have any "afterlife experiences"?

Well, I'm not the person to whom you were writing, but I'll answer it anyway. I "flat lined" after a car
accident that left me in a coma.

-- Yes, I had an "afterlife" experience.
-- The deities I experienced were not ones that I could consider objectively believing in. Nonobjectively
believing in - Yes, there are old cultural stories about these deities, which I was somewhat familiar
with, those stories exist, and people in that culture took them seriously - a few people still do.
-- I was a theist when I had this experience.
-- I had no urge or desire to contact people who worship these deities in modern USA before or after
the experience.
-- I was "angry" at God for awhile. Then, I made peace with the whole issue.
-- I became an atheist a couple of decades after that.

So..... I'm not the person that any theistic organization wants to talk to to make their "proof" that God
exists. I didn't see Gods that are widely worshiped today. I didn't see Gods I worshiped. I had no
urge or desire to take this as anything beyond what a very blood and oxygen-deprived brain could make
out of anything it knew from the signals coming to the brain as a result of injuries.

[BethK]

I've been dealing with an issue that I believe only atheists could really help me with, and so I came
across these forums. I just joined, and after a quick browse didn't see my issue anywhere, so I apologize
if this is a repeat topic.

Anyway. I'll do my best to explain my issue:
I'm an atheist and I also have a few problems with depression and anxiety. My problem, however, is
that I've recently developed a MAJOR "fear" of death.

Specifically, I am convinced, beyond a doubt, that there is no existence after death. I am 100%
convinced that when I die, there will be nothingness... no afterlife, no me, no thoughts, no
blackness, no sleep, nor any ability to think. I won't even know I died, and I won't even be able to
acknowledge that I don't know I died. At this moment, I feel like I really understand what that means,
and I am deeply deeply disturbed by it. I'm not sure how to cope with it. I can keep it out of my
mind for short periods of time, but ultimately I'll read an article about someone dying, see a news
report, and so on and start thinking about it again.

If anyone has any advice or thoughts or hopefully some sort of solution to my problem, I would greatly
appreciate it. Thanks.

Sorry I didn't get to answer this sooner.

Regardless of any beliefs or philosophy or scientific ideas, the operative phrase is your FEAR.

You say that you've got a fear of death. At the same time, you believe to a certainty that there is
NOTHING awaiting you - no afterlife, no ability to think or perceive, and won't even know that you
have died. So, the fear cannot be a personal one of being dead. It would seem that your fear is of the dying
process itself and what may lead up to that. Another possibility is that you fear the sadness and loss
that your loved ones will have because you are no longer with them, and possibly any people or
organizations/businesses that will miss not having you for what you could do for them. (He was right
on the brink of getting that new (invention) to work which would have done wonderful things, made
the world a better place, made us a LOT of money, and he'd have gone down in history as....) Or, perhaps
the other side of it, of not having lived up to your potential.

Let's handle these one at a time.

For one thing, are you really 100% certain that there is no afterlife, or do you strongly hold the opinion
or belief that nonexistence is the most likely thing to happen - that after you die it will be much like the
billions of years that went by before you were alive - no consciousness, no ability to think or perceive?
Or, do you view that as the most likely option, but view the other possibilities that have been suggested
over time might be right (even if at in infinitesimal probability), or even that something else is the
probable outcome. IMnsHO, this is because there is absolutely no data. There are nebulous claims made
by a lot of people about the afterlife, but the reality is that there are verifiable instances of someone who
was dead returning from the dead to tell us what it is like. Some people have wanted to prove or
disprove it very badly, such as the late Harry Houdini, who supposedly had a code/password set up
with his wife - and contrary to some claims, this was never communicated to her by anybody who claimed
to be able to contact the dead - many mediums and spiritualists tried, but to no avail. So, if the desires
one has while alive survive death, it can't be done. If desires or personality or even agreements do not
survive death, what would it mean to have "you" be conscious after death? That's part of what's wrong
with the idea of reincarnation - if you don't have any idea who you were or what you did in the past,
and don't know what you are supposed to "learn" or "get right", who or what you wanted to come back
to be with (again), or for what you are being rewarded or punished, in what respect are you the
supposedly-reincarnated individual?

From reading, it seems more likely that you fear what will lead up to dying rather than the state of being
dead. Yes, death can be very painful and very unpleasant in many ways. Perhaps you can look at obtaining
an advance directive to try to ensure that your wishes and values are heeded - that you get adequate
pain medication, that "heroic" efforts not be made to save your life - at the cost of the quality of that
remaining life.

If it's the fear for those that survive you experiencing the sadness or loss in not having you - about all I
can say is to do what you can with them now, while you are alive. If there's anything that you'd regret
not doing or saying if you were to die today, why don't you go do it, or say it, or start it? Same thing if
you'd regret not living up to your potential (in someone's eyes). If there are things that you regret not
doing, get a start on doing those things. Some regrets cannot be redone or done now - the window for
them might have passed. Some things can be. If you don't want to die without writing "that novel" or
"that poem", get started on it. If you don't want to die without seeing (some geographical/cultural
location), plan to do it, and plan to save the money so that you can at some specific time. If you want
to spend more time with someone, do that. If you want to invent something in particular, go do that.
What I'm saying is live your life to the fullest. What are really sad are lives that never were lived - by
the person's own choices.

A shorter way of restating the above paragraph is "live life to the fullest".

If I haven't touched on the real concern, and your fear of death is something else, please let me know.
Yes, even if it seems "irrational" - most fears really are. They are nonetheless very real and certainly
impact on your life.

Beth

[Carnavon]

---

I've been dealing with an issue that I believe only atheists could really help me with, and so I came
across these forums. I just joined, and after a quick browse didn't see my issue anywhere, so I apologize
if this is a repeat topic.

Anyway. I'll do my best to explain my issue:
I'm an atheist and I also have a few problems with depression and anxiety. My problem, however, is
that I've recently developed a MAJOR "fear" of death.

Specifically, I am convinced, beyond a doubt, that there is no existence after death. I am 100%
convinced that when I die, there will be nothingness... no afterlife, no me, no thoughts, no
blackness, no sleep, nor any ability to think. I won't even know I died, and I won't even be able to
acknowledge that I don't know I died. At this moment, I feel like I really understand what that means,
and I am deeply deeply disturbed by it. I'm not sure how to cope with it. I can keep it out of my
mind for short periods of time, but ultimately I'll read an article about someone dying, see a news
report, and so on and start thinking about it again.

If anyone has any advice or thoughts or hopefully some sort of solution to my problem, I would greatly
appreciate it. Thanks.

Sorry I didn't get to answer this sooner.

Regardless of any beliefs or philosophy or scientific ideas, the operative phrase is your FEAR.

You say that you've got a fear of death. At the same time, you believe to a certainty that there is
NOTHING awaiting you - no afterlife, no ability to think or perceive, and won't even know that you
have died. So, the fear cannot be a personal one of being dead. It would seem that your fear is of the dying
process itself and what may lead up to that. Another possibility is that you fear the sadness and loss
that your loved ones will have because you are no longer with them, and possibly any people or
organizations/businesses that will miss not having you for what you could do for them. (He was right
on the brink of getting that new (invention) to work which would have done wonderful things, made
the world a better place, made us a LOT of money, and he'd have gone down in history as....) Or, perhaps
the other side of it, of not having lived up to your potential.

Let's handle these one at a time.

For one thing, are you really 100% certain that there is no afterlife, or do you strongly hold the opinion
or belief that nonexistence is the most likely thing to happen - that after you die it will be much like the
billions of years that went by before you were alive - no consciousness, no ability to think or perceive?
Or, do you view that as the most likely option, but view the other possibilities that have been suggested
over time might be right (even if at in infinitesimal probability), or even that something else is the
probable outcome. IMnsHO, this is because there is absolutely no data. There are nebulous claims made
by a lot of people about the afterlife, but the reality is that there are verifiable instances of someone who
was dead returning from the dead to tell us what it is like. Some people have wanted to prove or
disprove it very badly, such as the late Harry Houdini, who supposedly had a code/password set up
with his wife - and contrary to some claims, this was never communicated to her by anybody who claimed
to be able to contact the dead - many mediums and spiritualists tried, but to no avail. So, if the desires
one has while alive survive death, it can't be done. If desires or personality or even agreements do not
survive death, what would it mean to have "you" be conscious after death? That's part of what's wrong
with the idea of reincarnation - if you don't have any idea who you were or what you did in the past,
and don't know what you are supposed to "learn" or "get right", who or what you wanted to come back
to be with (again), or for what you are being rewarded or punished, in what respect are you the
supposedly-reincarnated individual?

From reading, it seems more likely that you fear what will lead up to dying rather than the state of being
dead. Yes, death can be very painful and very unpleasant in many ways. Perhaps you can look at obtaining
an advance directive to try to ensure that your wishes and values are heeded - that you get adequate
pain medication, that "heroic" efforts not be made to save your life - at the cost of the quality of that
remaining life.

If it's the fear for those that survive you experiencing the sadness or loss in not having you - about all I
can say is to do what you can with them now, while you are alive. If there's anything that you'd regret
not doing or saying if you were to die today, why don't you go do it, or say it, or start it? Same thing if
you'd regret not living up to your potential (in someone's eyes). If there are things that you regret not
doing, get a start on doing those things. Some regrets cannot be redone or done now - the window for
them might have passed. Some things can be. If you don't want to die without writing "that novel" or
"that poem", get started on it. If you don't want to die without seeing (some geographical/cultural
location), plan to do it, and plan to save the money so that you can at some specific time. If you want
to spend more time with someone, do that. If you want to invent something in particular, go do that.
What I'm saying is live your life to the fullest. What are really sad are lives that never were lived - by
the person's own choices.

A shorter way of restating the above paragraph is "live life to the fullest".

If I haven't touched on the real concern, and your fear of death is something else, please let me know.
Yes, even if it seems "irrational" - most fears really are. They are nonetheless very real and certainly
impact on your life.

Beth

---

To summarise - there is no proof either way whether this life is all there is. I think we all have a sneaky suspicion that it is not, why else this concern with death? It is a very natural process that we will all go through. Nothingness is not something to be afraid of? I would really like to find out why is it a problem to accept that there may be life after death?

[Skipper]

---

I've been dealing with an issue that I believe only atheists could really help me with, and so I came
across these forums. I just joined, and after a quick browse didn't see my issue anywhere, so I apologize
if this is a repeat topic.

Anyway. I'll do my best to explain my issue:
I'm an atheist and I also have a few problems with depression and anxiety. My problem, however, is
that I've recently developed a MAJOR "fear" of death.

Specifically, I am convinced, beyond a doubt, that there is no existence after death. I am 100%
convinced that when I die, there will be nothingness... no afterlife, no me, no thoughts, no
blackness, no sleep, nor any ability to think. I won't even know I died, and I won't even be able to
acknowledge that I don't know I died. At this moment, I feel like I really understand what that means,
and I am deeply deeply disturbed by it. I'm not sure how to cope with it. I can keep it out of my
mind for short periods of time, but ultimately I'll read an article about someone dying, see a news
report, and so on and start thinking about it again.

If anyone has any advice or thoughts or hopefully some sort of solution to my problem, I would greatly
appreciate it. Thanks.

Sorry I didn't get to answer this sooner.

Regardless of any beliefs or philosophy or scientific ideas, the operative phrase is your FEAR.

You say that you've got a fear of death. At the same time, you believe to a certainty that there is
NOTHING awaiting you - no afterlife, no ability to think or perceive, and won't even know that you
have died. So, the fear cannot be a personal one of being dead. It would seem that your fear is of the dying
process itself and what may lead up to that. Another possibility is that you fear the sadness and loss
that your loved ones will have because you are no longer with them, and possibly any people or
organizations/businesses that will miss not having you for what you could do for them. (He was right
on the brink of getting that new (invention) to work which would have done wonderful things, made
the world a better place, made us a LOT of money, and he'd have gone down in history as....) Or, perhaps
the other side of it, of not having lived up to your potential.

Let's handle these one at a time.

For one thing, are you really 100% certain that there is no afterlife, or do you strongly hold the opinion
or belief that nonexistence is the most likely thing to happen - that after you die it will be much like the
billions of years that went by before you were alive - no consciousness, no ability to think or perceive?
Or, do you view that as the most likely option, but view the other possibilities that have been suggested
over time might be right (even if at in infinitesimal probability), or even that something else is the
probable outcome. IMnsHO, this is because there is absolutely no data. There are nebulous claims made
by a lot of people about the afterlife, but the reality is that there are verifiable instances of someone who
was dead returning from the dead to tell us what it is like. Some people have wanted to prove or
disprove it very badly, such as the late Harry Houdini, who supposedly had a code/password set up
with his wife - and contrary to some claims, this was never communicated to her by anybody who claimed
to be able to contact the dead - many mediums and spiritualists tried, but to no avail. So, if the desires
one has while alive survive death, it can't be done. If desires or personality or even agreements do not
survive death, what would it mean to have "you" be conscious after death? That's part of what's wrong
with the idea of reincarnation - if you don't have any idea who you were or what you did in the past,
and don't know what you are supposed to "learn" or "get right", who or what you wanted to come back
to be with (again), or for what you are being rewarded or punished, in what respect are you the
supposedly-reincarnated individual?

From reading, it seems more likely that you fear what will lead up to dying rather than the state of being
dead. Yes, death can be very painful and very unpleasant in many ways. Perhaps you can look at obtaining
an advance directive to try to ensure that your wishes and values are heeded - that you get adequate
pain medication, that "heroic" efforts not be made to save your life - at the cost of the quality of that
remaining life.

If it's the fear for those that survive you experiencing the sadness or loss in not having you - about all I
can say is to do what you can with them now, while you are alive. If there's anything that you'd regret
not doing or saying if you were to die today, why don't you go do it, or say it, or start it? Same thing if
you'd regret not living up to your potential (in someone's eyes). If there are things that you regret not
doing, get a start on doing those things. Some regrets cannot be redone or done now - the window for
them might have passed. Some things can be. If you don't want to die without writing "that novel" or
"that poem", get started on it. If you don't want to die without seeing (some geographical/cultural
location), plan to do it, and plan to save the money so that you can at some specific time. If you want
to spend more time with someone, do that. If you want to invent something in particular, go do that.
What I'm saying is live your life to the fullest. What are really sad are lives that never were lived - by
the person's own choices.

A shorter way of restating the above paragraph is "live life to the fullest".

If I haven't touched on the real concern, and your fear of death is something else, please let me know.
Yes, even if it seems "irrational" - most fears really are. They are nonetheless very real and certainly
impact on your life.

Beth

---

To summarise - there is no proof either way whether this life is all there is. I think we all have a sneaky suspicion that it is not, why else this concern with death? It is a very natural process that we will all go through. Nothingness is not something to be afraid of? I would really like to find out why is it a problem to accept that there may be life after death?

Do we? I have a sneaky suspicion there is no evidence to suggest there is anything other than this life, so why think there is? You are right in saying we don't know, but we don't know a lot of things, but common sense kicks in and tells us if we don't know something then it's stupid to assume anything. When it comes to death, higher beings and the origins of our universe some people forgo common sense and jump straight for religion.

[Ace Otana]

Nothingness is not something to be afraid of?

Why fear it? You were nothing for billions of years, and yet you're not bothered by that. Why be bothered about it now? Because now you know what it's like to exist?

I would really like to find out why is it a problem to accept that there may be life after death?

I don't have a problem accepting the possibility of there being some kind of after life. It's believing it I have trouble with. It's not very believable, plus it lacks evidence.
I think it's all wishful thinking, hoping there's more existence for us once we die. To hide the reality of what it means to die.
Our existence is temporary. Nothing but a taster.
Here's my counter question: Why is it a problem to accept that there may not be an afterlife?

When it comes to death, higher beings and the origins of our universe some people forgo common sense and jump straight for religion.

Fear of death, that is.

[The Magic Pudding]

Why fear it? You were nothing for billions of years, and yet you're not bothered by that. Why be bothered about it now? Because now you know what it's like to exist?

There is the argument that goes something like:
Yes the universe existed for 6000 years before I was born, maybe a bit more, but it was working up to something, a climax, me.
But when I'm gone, well there's no point really is there. Elephants may well evolve into inter dimensional portals, but it's pointless because I won't be here.

[Ace Otana]

Why fear it? You were nothing for billions of years, and yet you're not bothered by that. Why be bothered about it now? Because now you know what it's like to exist?

There is the argument that goes something like:
Yes the universe existed for 6000 years before I was born, maybe a bit more, but it was working up to something, a climax, me.
But when I'm gone, well there's no point really is there. Elephants may well evolve into inter dimensional portals, but it's pointless because I won't be here.

Huh?

Don't get it. What point does that argument make?