What Gives You Peace....

[Brian37]

What gives me peace? Looking over my collection of classicist art, especially the works of John William Godward and Albert Joseph Moore.

Irony, is that as much as the Nazis railed against non fascist art, they spent the war robbing the art of those they conquered and keeping the riches for themselves. So while Hitler mandated art depicting purity, his highest staff were plundering artwork of those they conquered.

[arewethereyet]

What gives me peace? Looking over my collection of classicist art, especially the works of John William Godward and Albert Joseph Moore.

Irony, is that as much as the Nazis railed against non fascist art, they spent the war robbing the art of those they conquered and keeping the riches for themselves. So while Hitler mandated art depicting purity, his highest staff were plundering artwork of those they conquered.

WTAF are you babbling about now?

Is there no topic you won't try to make into something about Hitler?

[Brian37]

Irony, is that as much as the Nazis railed against non fascist art, they spent the war robbing the art of those they conquered and keeping the riches for themselves. So while Hitler mandated art depicting purity, his highest staff were plundering artwork of those they conquered.

WTAF are you babbling about now?

Is there no topic you won't try to make into something about Hitler?

What? It how is stating historical fact wrong? Hitler, while promoting censorship and artwork that only promoted his party, at the same time had henchmen who plundered those they conquered. They didn't ultimately give a shit about Hitler, they only were after riches.

[arewethereyet]

WTAF are you babbling about now?

Is there no topic you won't try to make into something about Hitler?

What? It how is stating historical fact wrong? Hitler, while promoting censorship and artwork that only promoted his party, at the same time had henchmen who plundered those they conquered. They didn't ultimately give a shit about Hitler, they only were after riches.

Have you read this thread? Is ranting about Hitler what gives you peace?

[purplepurpose]

Tall Vampire Lady.

[vulcanlogician]

I think there is a juicy discussion to be had here. Especially concerning this topic's placement in the religious subforum... a discussion about the "validity" (or maybe better put the "rationality" or "reasonableness") of seeking/finding peace through religious exercise.

William James wrote:

" Like love, like wrath, like hope, ambition, jealousy, like every other instinctive eagerness and impulse, it adds to life an enchantment which is not rationally or logically deducible from anything else. This enchantment, coming as a gift when it does come—a gift of our organism, the physiologists will tell us, a gift of God’s grace, the theologians say —is either there or not there for us, and there are persons who can no more become possessed by it than they can fall in love with a given woman by mere word of command. Religious feeling is thus an absolute addition to the Subject’s range of life. It gives him a new sphere of power. When the outward battle is lost, and the outer world disowns him, it redeems and vivifies an interior world which otherwise would be an empty waste."

It's food for thought, anyway. It requires looking a religion as an activity rather than a set of truth claims. The claims religion makes, false as they may be, nonetheless (as James says) adds an "enchantment" to life and counts as an addition to "the subject's range of life."

I'm interested in hearing an atheist's appraisal of these notions.

[zwanzig]

I think that can be true if you separate the repressive behaviors of religion from the religious awe. For instance, there were times I remember feeling a confidence and rightness with the universe and my placement in it, I felt like I was a part of the majesty of this great created kingdom when I was a believer. But then it would immediately be spoiled by the invasion of concepts of worthiness/unworthiness, of earning your place and failure, and anxiety and loss constantly coloring any feeling of security or foreknowledge I thought I had. Here I am a part of the great plan, the plan made for me as a beloved creation of a Father figure and yet there were expectations that came with it, which meant failure was possible and happened often. How often did I lose sight of the beauty of creation and the wonder around me because I was focused on my manufactured guilt and manipulated into submitting to the control and authority of others.

It would be fine if religious feelings were all about the wonder of nature, the excellence of the human mind and progressive thought, and this embrace of an unwavering confidence of who you are and your placement in "what does it all mean?" But most religions that do that AND skip the shame and guilt cycles are more eastern, yeah? Any of the dominant religions in the West come attached with a structure of control that makes them more harmful than the benefit you might get from the playing pretend reality you have to submit to.

I don't think it is healthy to think about someone sacrificing for your mundane actions. I don't think it is healthy to feel absolved for your truly horrific or unethical actions. In all ways, Christ's sacrifice is not empowering but a weight and an unreasonable damaging one. How harmful is the concept "I need to be saved"? Especially in regards to imaginary foes and unhealthy expectations.

[ignoramus]

I am finally at peace. I think it's more a matter of getting away from the toxic elements of your life rather than trying to force peace into your life, if you know what I mean.

Work used to stress me. (some people live for drama and stress and confrontation), as do family.
Financial stress is always a black cloud raining on one's inner peace.
Nice weather helps a lot psychologically also.
Have plenty of relaxing hobbies and watch cat videos like this one. (It always puts a smile on my face)

https://www.facebook.com/100006405006927...453820025/

[vulcanlogician]

I think that can be true if you separate the repressive behaviors of religion from the religious awe. For instance, there were times I remember feeling a confidence and rightness with the universe and my placement in it, I felt like I was a part of the majesty of this great created kingdom when I was a believer. But then it would immediately be spoiled by the invasion of concepts of worthiness/unworthiness, of earning your place and failure, and anxiety and loss constantly coloring any feeling of security or foreknowledge I thought I had. Here I am a part of the great plan, the plan made for me as a beloved creation of a Father figure and yet there were expectations that came with it, which meant failure was possible and happened often. How often did I lose sight of the beauty of creation and the wonder around me because I was focused on my manufactured guilt and manipulated into submitting to the control and authority of others.

It would be fine if religious feelings were all about the wonder of nature, the excellence of the human mind and progressive thought, and this embrace of an unwavering confidence of who you are and your placement in "what does it all mean?" But most religions that do that AND skip the shame and guilt cycles are more eastern, yeah? Any of the dominant religions in the West come attached with a structure of control that makes them more harmful than the benefit you might get from the playing pretend reality you have to submit to.

I don't think it is healthy to think about someone sacrificing for your mundane actions. I don't think it is healthy to feel absolved for your truly horrific or unethical actions. In all ways, Christ's sacrifice is not empowering but a weight and an unreasonable damaging one. How harmful is the concept "I need to be saved"? Especially in regards to imaginary foes and unhealthy expectations.

I think you raise a good point. Embracing a religious outlook or "mystical vision" risks ending up in delusion. Especially if there are social forces involved. They will prey on that (even if unconsciously). Let's say a mystic has a vision of Christ or something, and thereafter seeks to be more like the being in his mystical vision. A church community may prey on that... warp that experience, use the mystic's eagerness to advance its own ideas and goals.

Even Eastern approaches have these pitfalls and perils. I've read stories about mystics who have had "visions" of being reincarnated dozens of lifetimes as a servant of a given guru. A guru who in fact was a cult leader and abused his followers.

I'm on the fence about whether mystical experience can be valuable to an individual. Part of me thinks it can. But, if one wants to go that route, I'd advise they stay the hell away from other organized religion/ other worshippers and go their own route. Do the hermit thing. An exception to this may be certain monastic circles. But I'm even leary of those.

[brewer]

I think there is a juicy discussion to be had here. Especially concerning this topic's placement in the religious subforum... a discussion about the "validity" (or maybe better put the "rationality" or "reasonableness") of seeking/finding peace through religious exercise.

William James wrote:

" Like love, like wrath, like hope, ambition, jealousy, like every other instinctive eagerness and impulse, it adds to life an enchantment which is not rationally or logically deducible from anything else. This enchantment, coming as a gift when it does come—a gift of our organism, the physiologists will tell us, a gift of God’s grace, the theologians say —is either there or not there for us, and there are persons who can no more become possessed by it than they can fall in love with a given woman by mere word of command. Religious feeling is thus an absolute addition to the Subject’s range of life. It gives him a new sphere of power. When the outward battle is lost, and the outer world disowns him, it redeems and vivifies an interior world which otherwise would be an empty waste."

It's food for thought, anyway. It requires looking a religion as an activity rather than a set of truth claims. The claims religion makes, false as they may be, nonetheless (as James says) adds an "enchantment" to life and counts as an addition to "the subject's range of life."

I'm interested in hearing an atheist's appraisal of these notions.

Couldn't the same be said for any groups promoting social enrichment/benefit?

This could also be used to explain the influence of cults.