Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: March 28, 2024, 5:08 pm

Thread Rating:
  • 2 Vote(s) - 4 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
What Gives You Peace....
#51
RE: What Gives You Peace....
(July 2, 2021 at 7:56 am)brewer Wrote: Couldn't the same be said for any groups promoting social enrichment/benefit?

This could also be used to explain the influence of cults.

I'm not asking if there aren't secular means to find happiness. What I'm asking is: can religious belief provide a sort of happiness that is on par with nonreligious ways? Or is the "bad" that comes with embracing a religious outlook so great, that the best answer is to never even attempt to bolster your happiness with religious experiences?

I did mention cults in my above post. To me, all religious organizations have a "cultiness level."

For example, Jim Jones's church would have a cultiness level of 100%.

The Hare Krishnas: 70%. A fundamentalist Baptist church maybe 55%. You mentioned your wife being a "cafeteria Catholic" ... so the cultiness of her particular situation may only be 5% (or something)-- I'm just throwing out numbers.

The point is, all religious groups are coercive to some degree (even if it's very minor). And I think a good counterargument to William James's thesis above is: Belief or religious activity opens you up to religious coercion. That may potentially outweigh any potential benefits it provides.
Reply
#52
RE: What Gives You Peace....
(July 2, 2021 at 8:10 am)vulcanlogician Wrote:
(July 2, 2021 at 7:56 am)brewer Wrote: Couldn't the same be said for any groups promoting social enrichment/benefit?

This could also be used to explain the influence of cults.

I'm not asking if there aren't secular means to find happiness. What I'm asking is: can religious belief provide a sort of happiness that is on par with nonreligious ways? Or is the "bad" that comes with embracing a religious outlook so great, that the best answer is to never even attempt to bolster your happiness with religious experiences?

I did mention cults in my above post. To me, all religious organizations have a "cultiness level."

For example, Jim Jones's church would have a cultiness level of 100%.

The Hare Krishnas: 70%. A fundamentalist Baptist church maybe 55%. You mentioned your wife being a "cafeteria Catholic" ... so the cultiness of her particular situation may only be 5% (or something)-- I'm just throwing out numbers.

The point is, all religious groups are coercive to some degree (even if it's very minor). And I think a good counterargument to William James's thesis above is: Belief or religious activity opens you up to religious coercion. That may potentially outweigh any potential benefits it provides.

Didn't mention cults in the post I responded to.

I know plenty of "religious" people who are not into it for the religion/belief but the community. The herd can fulfill a lot of needs. 

I think problems begin when the person is open to compromise of their individual values. Religion requires sheep.
I don't have an anger problem, I have an idiot problem.
Reply
#53
RE: What Gives You Peace....
(July 2, 2021 at 9:02 am)brewer Wrote: Didn't mention cults in the post I responded to.

Yeah, but (incidentally) I had just mentioned cults in my exchange with Five, right before you posted your response to my other post. For some reason, I thought it was worth mentioning. But it probably just confused you, sorry.
Reply
#54
RE: What Gives You Peace....
Religion doesn’t have to be any of those things. The trouble with abrahamism and charismatic cults are laid directly at the feet of those things themselves.

There doesn’t have to be any bad in a religious outlook. Those religions and their believers insist, and that’s why their beliefs are trash.

It doesn’t just happen, like water flowing downhill. It’s optional.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#55
RE: What Gives You Peace....
(June 29, 2021 at 12:39 pm)ronedee Wrote: ...Over the years, I've always pondered the fact that there is virtually no "peace" here, and in most other 
atheistic (w/no mention of God allowed) forums.

My [serious] questions, if you are so inclined to answer them:

1. Do you require any inner peace to function in life?

2. Where do you find your peace, if you require it?

3. Do you feel that it is a virtue, or just a state of nature(i.e. calm weather, no war, no one bothering you...like me! lol)


I'll make my points after I've had some feedback. This has been a longtime curiosity as to
our divide. Not only here but with; family, friends & acquaintances who are atheists.

Thanks for your input! R

1. To function more or less happily, yes.

2. I don’t have peace often. It’s a constant struggle.

3. It’s complicated.
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”

Wiser words were never spoken. 
Reply
#56
RE: What Gives You Peace....
(June 29, 2021 at 12:39 pm)ronedee Wrote: ...Over the years, I've always pondered the fact that there is virtually no "peace" here, and in most other 
atheistic (w/no mention of God allowed) forums.

First of all, this is a forum where the main topic under consideration, is quite contentious by default. So, of course you will tend to see heated discussions where the interlocutors are passionate about their stance. The lack of "peace' you seem to notice here, says nothing about how any of us atheists are in real life.

Second, WTF are you talking about with your "no mention of God allowed" comment? Every single person that posts here, atheist and theist alike, is completely free to mention any god or gods they like. You did notice you started this thread in a sub forum completely dedicated to the discussion of all versions of the Christian gods, right?

And finally, it takes quite a bit of egregious behavior for a theist to get banned from this site (you've been a member for 9 years!), and atheist sites in general, yet, I've been banned from quite a few theist forums (Catholic forums included) for doing nothing more than politely asking questions.

So, stop with your Christian persecution complex, "Oh, the mean atheists won't let me talk about my version of a god on their site".

Quote:My [serious] questions, if you are so inclined to answer them:

1. Do you require any inner peace to function in life?

2. Where do you find your peace, if you require it?

3. Do you feel that it is a virtue, or just a state of nature(i.e. calm weather, no war, no one bothering you...like me! lol)

1. I don't require it, but it is nice to have from time to time.

2. I find my peace after a full day of surfing with friends (most of whom are theists, by the way), listening to intense and complex music, viewing great art, and a bit of meditation a few times a week.

3. No, it is not a virtue, it is one of many completely natural mental states that humans are capable of.

You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
Reply
#57
RE: What Gives You Peace....
At work.

(June 29, 2021 at 12:39 pm)ronedee Wrote: ...Over the years, I've always pondered the fact that there is virtually no "peace" here, and in most other 
atheistic (w/no mention of God allowed) forums.

My [serious] questions, if you are so inclined to answer them:

1. Do you require any inner peace to function in life?

2. Where do you find your peace, if you require it?

3. Do you feel that it is a virtue, or just a state of nature(i.e. calm weather, no war, no one bothering you...like me! lol)


I'll make my points after I've had some feedback. This has been a longtime curiosity as to
our divide. Not only here but with; family, friends & acquaintances who are atheists.

Thanks for your input! R

Well.... every now and then I partake in a few ounces of a nice lager (Beer) which induces quite the nice amount of 'Peace'.

Big Grin
Reply
#58
RE: What Gives You Peace....
(July 2, 2021 at 4:29 pm)Simon Moon Wrote:
(June 29, 2021 at 12:39 pm)ronedee Wrote: ...Over the years, I've always pondered the fact that there is virtually no "peace" here, and in most other 
atheistic (w/no mention of God allowed) forums.

Second, WTF are you talking about with your "no mention of God allowed" comment? Every single person that posts here, atheist and theist alike, is completely free to mention any god or gods they like. You did notice you started this thread in a sub forum completely dedicated to the discussion of all versions of the Christian gods, right?

Yes to your first point. Kinda like assuming football players "lack peace" just because every time you see them publicly, they are bashing into people. I come here for debate. But that doesn't reflect my attitude towards my religious friends.

But (about "no God allowed" thing) I assumed ronedee meant "secular" forums where religion is considered a divisive topic... so the rules are "no mention of religion." After all, it seems rather impossible to talk about atheism without mentioning God or gods. Perhaps ronedee can clear that up?
Reply
#59
RE: What Gives You Peace....
(July 2, 2021 at 8:10 am)vulcanlogician Wrote: The point is, all religious groups are coercive to some degree (even if it's very minor).

Fixed that for you… 😊 As I may have mentioned before, I’m a rather shitty example of Chrisitian living, as in, I am not a regular church-goer nor do I adhere rigidly to any doctrines (though I may passionately advocate for them in a discussion forum)…hence my choice to identify as a “non-denominational Christian.”

Anyways, not being a church-goer reflects less about my attitude towards religion than it does about being a joiner. I don’t have any interest in joining a local church, sure, but I don’t have any interest in the Lions either. I did join the Masons, which is kinda cool, and I’m in good standing but I haven’t been to Lodge in ages.

Or maybe I’m just kinda selfish, because 1) a mature Protested who is versed in Scholasticism and fascinated by Swedenborg isn’t likely to find much intellectual stimulation at the local “Bible” church…and 2) I can privately direct my own charitable efforts without the overhead or community building effort. That said, there is a lot of bullshit in every church. And that’s because there’s just a lot of bullshit in every group for the art leagues to quilters’ guilds.

(July 2, 2021 at 8:10 am)vulcanlogician Wrote: What I'm asking is: can religious belief provide a sort of happiness that is on par with nonreligious ways? Or is the "bad" that comes with embracing a religious outlook so great, that the best answer is to never even attempt to bolster your happiness with religious experiences?...William James's thesis above is: Belief or religious activity opens you up to religious coercion. That may potentially outweigh any potential benefits it provides.

When I was a youthful atheist of the existentialist nihilist kind, I found some peace in the idea that nothing really mattered. There was no Grand Narrative oppressing me or Divine Judgement awaiting me. And yes, some very harmful ideas propagate in tightly knit literal-minded and dare I say ignorant communities. But that is the opinion of a once weirdly intellectual kid raised in the 70’s when Billy Graham was at his height and an evangelical was in the White House. I didn’t value as a teenager the very human social function of collective caregiving provided within a rural congregation. Are there secular organization that could do that without the cognitive baggage? Maybe they do; I don’t know.

A believer I’ve grown more mystical and increasingly fascinated by the role of intangibles, and not just religious one, have in human life…concepts such as ownership, sentimental value, and similarity, obligations. Are they so deeply ingrained in our intuitions that for all intents they are real? If these are just patterns found in nature what are they patterns of?

(July 2, 2021 at 7:34 am)Five Wrote: I think that can be true if you separate the repressive behaviors of religion from the religious awe. …when I was a believer…it would immediately be spoiled by the invasion of concepts of worthiness/unworthiness, … I was focused on my manufactured guilt and manipulated into submitting to the control and authority of others.

It would be fine if religious feelings were all about the wonder of nature, the excellence of the human mind and progressive thought, and this embrace of an unwavering confidence of who you are and your placement in "what does it all mean?"

You and me both…you and me both. Some…most religious organizations heap on the guilt. So does the ballet company. Every time I went to a performance (when there were such things) there'd be a pitch to donate some memorial fund or educational programs. In the case of the church however the there seem to be more opportunities to manipulate people by appealing to scripture, or purgatory,…I don't know...personally, I believe we have been going through a protracted moral panic and I am hoping some kind of second Great Awakening will bring much needed reforms to how people in America think about religion.
<insert profound quote here>
Reply
#60
RE: What Gives You Peace....
(July 6, 2021 at 10:11 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote:
(July 2, 2021 at 8:10 am)vulcanlogician Wrote: The point is, all religious groups are coercive to some degree (even if it's very minor).

Fixed that for you… 😊 As I may have mentioned before, I’m a rather shitty example of Chrisitian living, as in, I am not a regular church-goer nor do I adhere rigidly to any doctrines (though I may passionately advocate for them in a discussion forum)…hence my choice to identify as a “non-denominational Christian.”

...

That said, there is a lot of bullshit in every church. And that’s because there’s just a lot of bullshit in every group for the art leagues to quilters’ guilds.

That's funny, because a lot of people who identify as "non-denominational" in my hometown (Appalachian culture) are hard core Pentacostal. But I know you aren't. You kinda remind me of a Catholic, tbh.

Anyway, you make an excellent point. "Social groups" in general have a laundry list of foibles. Even completely secular social structures (like high school cliques) often include certain people being ostracized for arbitrary reasons. Any time there is a social dynamic (particularly in larger groups and ideologies) there is going to be some baggage.

I do feel that the coercive element is a bit stronger in religious groups than in "normal" social groups... a bit more institutionalized. But that doesn't bother me too much. The bigger gripe is that religious groups often call their pettiness and bigotry by tender names (or sometimes even exalted, holy names) . At least a high school clique has the self-awareness of knowing its own pettiness is pettiness.

"Less self-aware than a high school clique," is a serious criticism...

But you made another good point: it's a criticism that can only be leveled at a certain kind of "less enlightened" religion. It's unfair to paint all religion with that same brush. It's tempting to do so, though, because the worst religion has to offer is often the most loudmouthed. And (according to them) they speak for God. Perhaps too many atheists take them on their word on that account.


PS: Your placement of ellipses when you last quoted me seriously misrepresented the views of William James.
Reply



Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  The religion of peace LinuxGal 5 639 October 1, 2023 at 8:40 pm
Last Post: LinuxGal
  Christianity And Peace Der/die AtheistIn 12 2790 July 22, 2017 at 1:00 am
Last Post: Astonished
  Pope Francis backs peace efforts in Christmas Day message zebo-the-fat 63 14447 December 27, 2015 at 7:55 pm
Last Post: Edwardo Piet
  Christian Bride gives her Pastor father certificate of purity on her wedding day The Valkyrie 136 26360 October 28, 2015 at 3:19 am
Last Post: Wyrd of Gawd
  Pope calls for peace zebo-the-fat 51 6365 April 9, 2015 at 7:04 pm
Last Post: Polaris
  Pope Gives Evolution a Big Banging StealthySkeptic 27 4174 October 29, 2014 at 8:49 am
Last Post: FatAndFaithless
  A Priest at TED Gives a Powerful Talk The Reality Salesman01 15 3914 November 25, 2013 at 7:44 pm
Last Post: Whateverist
  The Pope prays for peace (again) zebo-the-fat 3 1245 December 27, 2012 at 2:00 am
Last Post: Cyberman



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)