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[Quranic Reflection]: the Hajj.
#41
RE: [Quranic Reflection]: the Hajj.
(July 28, 2021 at 11:14 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_al-Bukhari

"Slay them wherever you find them...Idolatry is worse than carnage...Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme." (Surah 2:190-)
"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." (Surah 9:121-)
"Blessed are the believers...who restrain their carnal desires (except with their wives and slave-girls, for these are lawful to them)...These are the heirs of Paradise..." (Surah 23:1-5-)
""Muhammad is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another." (Surah 48:29)
"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it." (Surah 2:216)
"Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people...They desire nothing but your ruin....You believe in the entire Book...When they meet you they say: 'We, too, are believers.' But when alone, they bite their finger-tips with rage." (Surah 3:118, 119)
"Forbidden to you are...married women, except those you own as slaves." (Surah 4:20-, 24-)
"If you do not fight, He will punish you sternly, and replace you by other men." (Surah 9:37-)
Muslim (8:3309) - Muhammad consummated his marriage to Aisha when she was only nine. (See also Bukhari 58:234 and many other places). No where in the reliable Hadith or Sira is there any other age given.
Bukhari (62:18) - Aisha's father, Abu Bakr, wasn't on board at first, but Muhammad explained how the rules of their religion made it possible. This is similar to the way that present-day cult leaders manipulate their followers into similar concessions.
Muslim (8:3311) - The girl took her dolls with her to Muhammad's house (something to play with when the "prophet" was not having sex with her).
Bukhari (6:298) - Muhammad would take a bath with the little girl and fondle her.
Muslim (8:3460) - "Why didn't you marry a young girl so that you could sport with her and she sport with you, or you could amuse with her and she could amuse with you?" Muhammad posed this question to one of his followers who had married an "older woman" instead of opting to fondle a child.
Bukhari (4:232) - Muhammad's wives would wash semen stains out of his clothes, which were still wet from the spot-cleaning even when he went to the mosque for prayers. Between copulation and prayer, it's a wonder he found the time to slay pagans.
Bukhari (6:300) - Muhammad's wives had to be available for the prophet's fondling even when they were having their menstrual period.
Bukhari (93:639) - The Prophet of Islam would recite the 'Holy Qur'an' with his head in Aisha's lap, when she was menstruating.
Bukhari (62:6) - "The Prophet used to go round (have sexual relations with) all his wives in one night, and he had nine wives." Muhammad also said that it was impossible to treat all wives equally - and it isn't hard to guess why.
Bukhari (5:268) - "The Prophet used to visit all his wives in a round, during the day and night and they were eleven in number." I asked Anas, 'Had the Prophet the strength for it?' Anas replied, 'We used to say that the Prophet was given the strength of thirty men.' "
Bukhari (60:311) - "I feel that your Lord hastens in fulfilling your wishes and desires." These words were spoken by Aisha within the context of her husband having been given 'Allah's permission' to fulfill his sexual desires with a large number of women in whatever order he chooses. (It has been suggested that Aisha may have been speaking somewhat wryly).
Muslim (8:3424) - One of several narrations in which a leering Muhammad orders a clearly startled woman to suckle a grown man with her breast so that he will become "unlawful" to her - meaning that they can live under the same roof together.
Tabari IX:137 - "Allah granted Rayhana of the Qurayza to Muhammad as booty." Muhammad considered the women that he captured and enslaved to be God's gift to him.
Tabari VIII:117 - "Dihyah had asked the Messenger for Safiyah when the Prophet chose her for himself... the Apostle traded for Safiyah by giving Dihyah her two cousins. The women of Khaybar were distributed among the Muslims." He sometimes pulled rank to reserve the most beautiful captured women for himself.

(July 29, 2021 at 5:09 am)WinterHold Wrote:
(July 29, 2021 at 5:00 am)Deesse23 Wrote: Getting owned so hard by Bucky. Makes one almost pity Atlass.

P.S.: Nope, dont think Bucky is a troll just because he disagrees with you. Nice try tho.  Hehe

Feeding trolls is not allowed.

Who says feeding trolls is not allowed? Of course it’s allowed.

Bucky is neither a troll nor a sock. In fact, no one (so far) in this thread has broken any rules.

Boru
‘Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.’ Ralph Waldo Emerson
Reply
#42
RE: [Quranic Reflection]: the Hajj.
One of the things I found interesting, was the issue of all the waste piling up from the sacrifices. The voucher program coupled with central distribution was a good solution.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#43
RE: [Quranic Reflection]: the Hajj.
(July 29, 2021 at 5:09 am)WinterHold Wrote:
(July 29, 2021 at 5:00 am)Deesse23 Wrote: Getting owned so hard by Bucky. Makes one almost pity Atlass.

P.S.: Nope, dont think Bucky is a troll just because he disagrees with you. Nice try tho.  Hehe

Feeding trolls is not allowed.
You just did.  Razz
Cetero censeo religionem delendam esse
Reply
#44
RE: [Quranic Reflection]: the Hajj.
(July 29, 2021 at 6:47 am)Deesse23 Wrote:
(July 29, 2021 at 5:09 am)WinterHold Wrote: Feeding trolls is not allowed.
You just did.  Razz

Just to clarify my earlier statement, while there is no rule against feeding trolls, it’s inadvisable to do so.

Of course, it’s also inadvisable to be a Muslim, but we allow that. Fair is fair. Smile

Boru
‘Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.’ Ralph Waldo Emerson
Reply
#45
RE: [Quranic Reflection]: the Hajj.
(July 29, 2021 at 3:52 am)WinterHold Wrote:
(July 28, 2021 at 11:14 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_al-Bukhari

"Slay them wherever you find them...Idolatry is worse than carnage...Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme." (Surah 2:190-)
"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." (Surah 9:121-)
"Blessed are the believers...who restrain their carnal desires (except with their wives and slave-girls, for these are lawful to them)...These are the heirs of Paradise..." (Surah 23:1-5-)
""Muhammad is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another." (Surah 48:29)
"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it." (Surah 2:216)
"Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people...They desire nothing but your ruin....You believe in the entire Book...When they meet you they say: 'We, too, are believers.' But when alone, they bite their finger-tips with rage." (Surah 3:118, 119)
"Forbidden to you are...married women, except those you own as slaves." (Surah 4:20-, 24-)
"If you do not fight, He will punish you sternly, and replace you by other men." (Surah 9:37-)
Muslim (8:3309) - Muhammad consummated his marriage to Aisha when she was only nine. (See also Bukhari 58:234 and many other places). No where in the reliable Hadith or Sira is there any other age given.
Bukhari (62:18) - Aisha's father, Abu Bakr, wasn't on board at first, but Muhammad explained how the rules of their religion made it possible. This is similar to the way that present-day cult leaders manipulate their followers into similar concessions.
Muslim (8:3311) - The girl took her dolls with her to Muhammad's house (something to play with when the "prophet" was not having sex with her).
Bukhari (6:298) - Muhammad would take a bath with the little girl and fondle her.
Muslim (8:3460) - "Why didn't you marry a young girl so that you could sport with her and she sport with you, or you could amuse with her and she could amuse with you?" Muhammad posed this question to one of his followers who had married an "older woman" instead of opting to fondle a child.
Bukhari (4:232) - Muhammad's wives would wash semen stains out of his clothes, which were still wet from the spot-cleaning even when he went to the mosque for prayers. Between copulation and prayer, it's a wonder he found the time to slay pagans.
Bukhari (6:300) - Muhammad's wives had to be available for the prophet's fondling even when they were having their menstrual period.
Bukhari (93:639) - The Prophet of Islam would recite the 'Holy Qur'an' with his head in Aisha's lap, when she was menstruating.
Bukhari (62:6) - "The Prophet used to go round (have sexual relations with) all his wives in one night, and he had nine wives." Muhammad also said that it was impossible to treat all wives equally - and it isn't hard to guess why.
Bukhari (5:268) - "The Prophet used to visit all his wives in a round, during the day and night and they were eleven in number." I asked Anas, 'Had the Prophet the strength for it?' Anas replied, 'We used to say that the Prophet was given the strength of thirty men.' "
Bukhari (60:311) - "I feel that your Lord hastens in fulfilling your wishes and desires." These words were spoken by Aisha within the context of her husband having been given 'Allah's permission' to fulfill his sexual desires with a large number of women in whatever order he chooses. (It has been suggested that Aisha may have been speaking somewhat wryly).
Muslim (8:3424) - One of several narrations in which a leering Muhammad orders a clearly startled woman to suckle a grown man with her breast so that he will become "unlawful" to her - meaning that they can live under the same roof together.
Tabari IX:137 - "Allah granted Rayhana of the Qurayza to Muhammad as booty." Muhammad considered the women that he captured and enslaved to be God's gift to him.
Tabari VIII:117 - "Dihyah had asked the Messenger for Safiyah when the Prophet chose her for himself... the Apostle traded for Safiyah by giving Dihyah her two cousins. The women of Khaybar were distributed among the Muslims." He sometimes pulled rank to reserve the most beautiful captured women for himself.

I only believe in the Quran.
Hadith books are obsolete. Please discuss the main topic or open another specific thread for this matter.

Who cares what you believe. 
Obsolete ? LOL. 
I have plenty of Quran verses I can post, (will do so today) that are just as bad, LOL

"Muḥammad ibn Ismā‘īl al-Bukhārī (Persianبخاری‎, ‎) (19 July 810 – 1 September 870), commonly referred to as Imam al-Bukhari or Imam Bukhari,[4] was a Persian[5][6][7] Islamic scholar who was born in Bukhara (early Khorasan and present day Uzbekistan). He compiled the hadith collection known as Sahih al-Bukhari, regarded by Sunni Muslims as the most authentic (sahihhadith collections. He also wrote other books such as Al-Adab al-Mufrad.[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_al-Bukhari#cite_note-8][/url]

The VAST majority of Muslims regard the hadith above as "the most authentic'. 
"According to a study in 2015, Islam has 1.8 billion adherents, making up about 24.1% of the world population. Most Muslims are either of two denominations: Sunni (87–90%, roughly 1.6 billion people) or Shia (10–13%, roughly 180–230 million people)"
Nice try. No ... you cannot just dismiss 1.6 BILLION Muslims. Either they are TRUE or they are not TRUE. Saying something is "obsolete" is irrelevant. 
Time you get off your ass and start addressing the HISTORY. 

I'll open a thread when and if I decide to ... I need no advice from you. 
Everything I have posted is relevant to the Quran and the origins of Islam. 
You are simply too uninformed about the subject to even begin to reply to anything. 

So far, you're batting zero. It's so hilarious that instead of addressing the FACTS, you try to get me banned, and spout (incorrectly) the rules.
You're nothing but a joke.
Every religion is true one way or another. It is true when understood metaphorically. But when it gets stuck in its own metaphors, interpreting them as facts, then you are in trouble. - Joseph Campbell  Popcorn
Reply
#46
RE: [Quranic Reflection]: the Hajj.
Ill give him some leeway: 

He wont need to defend something he doesent believe in (truth of hadiths).
What he needs to defend is: WHY he thinks he is right and some 90% are wrong in accepting them Hadiths.

I find it amusing that he believes in Quran and not in Allah (the great, wise, PBUH, etc, pp, et al). Of course he thinks the Quran is the verbal excrement of this very deity mentioned, which, again, he should provide evidence for.....but wont/cant.

So all we are left again with is: Lots of (lukewarm) air from a fundamentalist believer.
Cetero censeo religionem delendam esse
Reply
#47
RE: [Quranic Reflection]: the Hajj.
https://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/

"Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home." (Surah 9:73)
"Slay them wherever you find them...Idolatry is worse than carnage...Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme." (Surah 2:190-)
"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." (Surah 9:121-)
"Fight for the cause of God with the devotion due to Him...He has given you the name of Muslims..." (Surah 22:78-)
"Blessed are the believers...who restrain their carnal desires (except with their wives and slave-girls, for these are lawful to them)...These are the heirs of Paradise..." (Surah 23:1-5-)
""Muhammad is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another." (Surah 48:29)
"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it." (Surah 2:216)
"Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people...They desire nothing but your ruin....You believe in the entire Book...When they meet you they say: 'We, too, are believers.' But when alone, they bite their finger-tips with rage." (Surah 3:118, 119)
"Forbidden to you are...married women, except those you own as slaves." (Surah 4:20-, 24-)
Seek out your enemies relentlessly." (Surah 4:103-)
"Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God's religion shall reign supreme." (Surah 8:36-)
"It ill becomes the idolaters [non-Muslims] to visit the mosques of God..." (Surah 9:17)
"If you do not fight, He will punish you sternly, and replace you by other men." (Surah 9:37-)

Allah managed to hand down quite a few "revelations" that sanctioned Muhammad's personal pursuit of sex to the doubters around him. Interestingly they have become part of the eternal, infallible word of the Qur'an, to be memorized by generations of Muslims for whom they have no possible relevance.

Qur'an (33:37) - "But when Zaid had accomplished his want of her, We gave her to you as a wife, so that there should be no difficulty for the believers in respect of the wives of their adopted sons, when they have accomplished their want of them; and Allah's command shall be performed." No doubt millions of young Muslims, trying to outdo one another at memorizing the Qur'an, have wondered about what this verse means and why it is there. In fact, this is a "revelation" of convenience that Allah just happened to hand down at a time when Muhammad lusted after his daughter-in-law, Zaynab, - a state of affairs that disturbed local customs. The verse "commands" Muhammad to marry the woman (following her husband's gracious divorce). As for why this should be part of the eternal word of God...?

Qur'an (33:50) - "O Prophet! surely We have made lawful to you your wives whom you have given their dowries, and those whom your right hand possesses out of those whom Allah has given to you as prisoners of war, and the daughters of your paternal uncles and the daughters of your paternal aunts, and the daughters of your maternal uncles and the daughters of your maternal aunts who fled with you; and a believing woman if she gave herself to the Prophet, if the Prophet desired to marry her-- specially for you, not for the (rest of) believers; We know what We have ordained for them concerning their wives and those whom their right hands possess in order that no blame may attach to you; " This is another special command that Muhammad handed down to himself that allows virtually unlimited sex, divinely sanctioned by Allah. One assumes that this "revelation" was meant to assuage some sort of disgruntlement in the community over Muhammad's hedonism.

Qur'an (33:51) - "You may put off whom you please of them, and you may take to you whom you please, and whom you desire of those whom you had separated provisionally; no blame attaches to you; this is most proper, so that their eyes may be cool and they may not grieve, and that they should be pleased" This is in reference to a situation in which Muhammad's wives were grumbling about his preference for sleeping with a slave girl (Mary the Copt) instead of them. Accordingly, Muhammad may sleep with whichever wife (or slave) he wishes without having to hear the others complain... as revealed in Allah's literal and perfect words to more than a billion Muslims.

Qur'an (66:1-5) - "O Prophet! Why ban thou that which Allah hath made lawful for thee, seeking to please thy wives?..." Another remarkable verse of sexual convenience concerns an episode in which Muhammad's wives were jealous of the attention that he was giving to a Christian slave girl. But, as he pointed out to them, to neglect the sexual availability of his slaves was against Allah's will for him!

Qur'an (4:24) - "And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." Allah even permitted Muhammad and his men to have sex with married slaves, such as those captured in battle.
Every religion is true one way or another. It is true when understood metaphorically. But when it gets stuck in its own metaphors, interpreting them as facts, then you are in trouble. - Joseph Campbell  Popcorn
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#48
RE: [Quranic Reflection]: the Hajj.
It’s tough for a reform minded Muslim to explain why they accept magic book, but not Hadith. Mostly because the veracity of either set are premised on an identical form of construction and attribution.

It’s fair to say that some personal belief ..or faith… is involved in positing that they got one right but not the other even though the same process created both items. That they were just luckier when it came to magic book, in effect.

It’s still an improvement. He sees things in Hadith that he is strongly against. He can remove those things from his religion at will and doesn’t need to explain why to anyone, really. He may not be consistent, he may have found a way to memory hole the one- but isn’t yet prepared to or doesnt know how to or doesn’t believe he -can- object to similar content in the other. This is understandable given the religion that we’re discussing and the relationship it has to its adherents.

More broadly, there are bound to be things that you, I , winter and the goldfish strongly believe to be true or false which we can’t adequately explain (if at all). This is one of his things. It’s important to keep in mind that it’s not really an argument. He also doesn’t believe in things that you don’t believe in. A rare opportunity for agreement.

I hope that he and other Muslims like him get out there and change other Muslims minds. Change their religion. It would be great if the ummah threw Hadith in the dustbin of history.

It’s not as if Islam hadn’t improved the state of abrahamism before. In the longer view of history, it will need to be improved again to stay relevant - and, failing that, the whole thing will end up a footnote. So, pressures on…clocks ticking and all that. There’s some new nutter story always waiting in the wings to replace the last one by better appealing to societies’ ever changing sensibility. See; Islam.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#49
RE: [Quranic Reflection]: the Hajj.
I would like to know EXACTLY on what date the hadith books became obsolete, and who decided that.
Every religion is true one way or another. It is true when understood metaphorically. But when it gets stuck in its own metaphors, interpreting them as facts, then you are in trouble. - Joseph Campbell  Popcorn
Reply
#50
RE: [Quranic Reflection]: the Hajj.
(July 29, 2021 at 10:35 am)Bucky Ball Wrote: I would like to know EXACTLY on what date the hadith books became obsolete, and who decided that.

I frankly didn't think OP is that stupid. The hadiths came after the Qur'an, so if he thinks obsolescence is a relevant criterion, the Qur'an would be invalidated too. In addition, no verse tells us how many days the pilgrimage should take. Winter just magically pulls the number 6 and wants us to believe him at face value, presenting zero reference.

Also, the "5 pillars" Winter mentions don't exist in the Qur'an and, finally, the devastating blow:

The stoning of the devil is NOT in the Qur'an.

You are absolutely laughable, Winter. You invalidated your own Qur'anism yourself.

Qur'anism aside, authentic hadiths are part of Islam and they never were obsolete. Simply put, there is no Islam without hadiths.

(July 29, 2021 at 7:36 am)Bucky Ball Wrote: "Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home." (Surah 9:73)
"Slay them wherever you find them...Idolatry is worse than carnage...Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme." (Surah 2:190-)
"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." (Surah 9:121-)
"Fight for the cause of God with the devotion due to Him...He has given you the name of Muslims..." (Surah 22:78-)

All these verses belong to some wartime issue, nothing in them is inherently immoral once you get right all the facts and the context. You can find detailed explanations of what these verses mean on the Internet, you are not the first to misunderstand them/quote them out of context.

(July 29, 2021 at 7:36 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: It’s tough for a reform minded Muslim to explain why they accept magic book, but not Hadith.  

It's impossible to defend this position coherently. The Qur'an explicitly tells Muslims to pray, for example, without giving detailed instructions of prayer, Muslims the world over pray 5 times a day, and yet the Qur'an never ever mentioned five prayers. If one omits the hadiths, many verses become unintelligible/inapplicable. Winter repeatedly borrowed stuff from the hadiths in this very thread without mentioning it (without knowing it?). OP is either dishonest or pathetically misinformed.
Qur'anic revelation is the sole path to ultimate reality. All argumentation and philosophy is an expression of arrogance and an overestimation of human cognitive ability. 

"But believe me, Cleanthes, the most natural feeling that a well-disposed mind will have on this occasion is a longing desire and expectation that God will be pleased to remove or at least to lessen this profound ignorance, by giving mankind some particular revelation, revealing the nature, attributes, and operations of the divine object of our faith." (Hume's Dialogues)


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