Atheists in church

[The Grand Nudger]

It would also be impossible to lay claim to immorality, under a naturalistic view. We're all doing what we do - all of it amounting to a list of natural facts. Kinky sex, in our nature. Rape, in our nature. Being an asshole.in general...in our nature.

[Spongebob]

IDK, it looks like a bunch of people immediately pointed out that you'd floated the naturalistic fallacy.  If a moral fact is a natural fact in this sense, then kinky consensual sex and rape are both good, as both are natural facts.  In fact...there's absolutely no example of bad to be found anywhere in nature, in this view, consistently held.

And why didn't I put it that way?  Good summary.

@Ahriman Schooled again.

[Ahriman]

Grand Nudger doesn't sound interested in schooling anyone, it just sounds like he's making his case in the most logically consistent way he can make it, which is cool. But arguments do not have to be logically sound, to be valid.

[The Grand Nudger]

The trouble with the naturalistic fallacy is that it is not valid, not that a given assertion is unsound. It's a sound assertion, for example..to say that people rape - and that people don't have wings. It doesn't follow from either fact that rape is good and flying is bad. Just as it wouldn't follow that kinky sex is bad because it's unnatural, even if that assertion were sound.

You've supplied a false premise to an invalid inference. Which is a dry way of saying that what you conclude isn't true by reference to the fact asserted even if the asserted fact were true, which it isn't.

[UniverseCaptain]

In theory everything that's ever happened is natural..that's the problem, using the word natural for anything is pretty pointless in my opinion.

[Spongebob]

Grand Nudger doesn't sound interested in schooling anyone, it just sounds like he's making his case in the most logically consistent way he can make it, which is cool. 

GN was pointing out how wrong you were, or didn't you get that?

But arguments do not have to be logically sound, to be valid.

Perhaps this is true.  But in your case it isn't.  You made some specific assertions about sex and what people should and should not do and you qualified those assertions by saying that animals in nature don't do that, therefore humans shouldn't do it either.  But then came a score of quite valid points that negated your assertion (my last one that most animal sex is rape is one such).  In logical parlance, this means you got schooled, as in demonstrated you were dead wrong.

So, now to your new assertion, that arguments do not have to be logically sound to be valid.  Care to back that up with an example?

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Another point missed by @Ahriman is that asserting that something is immoral is a value judgement, not a question of it's validity in reference to nature.

[The Grand Nudger]

I think what we're nattering away about with naturalistic fallacies, is the strong desire to insist that we aren't, or shouldn't be, animals... not that the good or bad can really be determined by looking at what animals do.

Doubly strange, in context - since....if we're really saying that people shouldn't be animals..then kinky sex being a thing only humans do is a mark in it's favor.

[Spongebob]

I think what we're nattering away about with naturalistic fallacies, is the strong desire to insist that we aren't, or shouldn't be, animals... not that the good or bad can really be determined by looking at what animals do.

Doubly strange, in context - since....if we're really saying that people shouldn't be animals..then kinky sex being a thing only humans do is a mark in it's favor.

Bonobo chimpanzees love their sex.  I mean it depends on what you mean by "kinky".  There are no vibrating dildos or anal beads, but bonobos enjoy frequent sex, multiple partners of both genders, and different positions.

This "we're not animals" thing is something that some versions of Christianity obsess about.

[MadJW]

They worship themselves.

First Church of Myself?

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

They worship themselves.

First Church of Myself?

That’s a church I could support.

Boru