Russia and Ukraine

[Leonardo17]

convincing people with a medium level of intelligence to vote for a neo-fascist Prime-minister like Georgia Melloni

Extremely dangerous to assume that it only works on people with a medium level of intelligence -- unless you're accepting that you and I and nearly everyone else are of a medium level. 

Propaganda is extremely sophisticated and works on everyone. 

Nor is it only used to the benefit of fascists or others we disapprove of. It is woven into the fabric of all mass media. CNN, for example, is propaganda for the US military industrial complex and capitalist ways of thinking just about 24/7.

“Indeed, Zelensky campaigned on a peace platform. But it appears that his bosses in NATO and the US overruled him. Boris Johnson flew to Ukraine to tell him that peace negotiations were not on the table. US officials have said both that 1) Ukraine can't win, and 2) peace negotiations can't be held. “
- Joe Biden talked to Putin via video conference. Macron went to Moscow 3 times if I am correct. Many leaders talked to Vladimir Putin directly. Even my “president” tried to pose as an intermediary and is still doing so and is “urging both side to find a diplomatic solution”.
There are no both sides. Russia is the aggressor. And it did so without a real cause. Period.
 
“So Putin responded to this, and countered with his demands to avoid war: no NATO in Ukraine. He was rejected. “
- I’ve had this debate with the AK party supporters in my own country. Some of them even believe that Ukrainians are “being spoiled by the West and will be left on their own when the west will cease to be interested in them”. So this is only sports to me. I just know the exact rhetoric
1) You cannot tell a sovereign country to join or not join a defensive military organization.
2) Russia is was unstable in the 90’s. But Since their invasion of Crimea, they are unstable and aggressive toward their neighbors. The Invasion of Crimea is like the Invasion of Alsace and Lorraine by the Prussians in 1873 because these two areas were “German”. Ukraine territorial integrity was guaranteed by Russia itself when they gave up their nuclear arsenal in 1991.
3) Even if Putin was right, now Finland and Sweden (who were neutral even in the cold war) want to join NATO. In fact, there was a rumor of NATO being “brain dead” before the eruption of the war in Ukraine (If you happen to know the famous story behind it )
 
“I question your wording in the portion of your post I have quoted above. I doubt that your quotation marks are direct quotes. Did Putin really say "Ukraine was “in his zone of influence” in other words Ukraine could only be a satellite of Russia and he wouldn’t negotiate on that." Or is this your own interpretation of what you think he means?”
- it’s not our fault if he lies about almost everything and we are left to try to make guesses about what could possibly be going on in his mind. That’s just how he is. Some people liked him. I didn’t like him even before the Syrian war.
 
“Russia wants the Russian-speaking areas of Ukraine not to be attacked by the other provinces. It wants Ukraine not to be militarized by anti-Russian forces. Does this make Ukraine a "satellite of Russia"? Well, the Russian-speaking people see themselves as naturally allied with Russia. The other people don't. “
- That’s what I am saying there are Russian speakers in Latvia, Letonia, Estonia, Poland, Moldavia, Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan, Tadjikistan, Kazakhistan too. An empire who doesn’t grow is an empire that has to shrink. Look at the Iranian who “are in control of 5 capital cities”. That’s the real model for all of us. In fact… whatever. I don’t think you yourself believe at least half the things you are saying. Sorry but, that’s how I see it
 
I think you are a victim of propaganda; you think I am a victim of propaganda. 

I will keep offering links which I think counter your views of the situation. Here is another one:
 
- I’m just an ordinary guy. But I happen to talk to people. And there are those people around me. If they point to the north star and say “This is the north star”, well, that’s the day I know the polarity of the globe has just flipped.
   I know, by experience, people who are being guided by propaganda. So I know which one is propaganda (who put innocent T-pop singers in awful jail for five days followed by a prohibition to leave the country with no agreeable legal basis [as one example of their many illegal actions] ) and which one is “the rest of the world”.
   So if you say “the rest of the world is propaganda” this leads us to the only possible explanation: and I already made that explanation
 
Extremely dangerous to assume that it only works on people with a medium level of intelligence -- unless you're accepting that you and I and nearly everyone else are of a medium level. 

Propaganda is extremely sophisticated and works on everyone. 

“Nor is it only used to the benefit of fascists or others we disapprove of. It is woven into the fabric of all mass media. CNN, for example, is propaganda for the US military industrial complex and capitalist ways of thinking just about 24/7.”
 
- Yes. But not entirely. Of course I don’t just believe everything CNN tells me automatically. But I think I have explained this also. There are many different types of media that are accessible to us today. I prefer the “better” one. Not because they always tell the truth. But Still I know that they are not state controlled and are independent. If they are under coporation control like Fox-News for instance, I will move away from them. And yes, this is true, how do you think 18 year old kids are still able to buy AK-47’s or M-16’s with their driver’s license in the US today?
- But this is our responsibility. I have the responsibility of finding good news channels for myself. So while there are newspapers I would only use as ordinary paper (literally – Since the military coup of 1980 there are many such newspapers in my country. So I know that as well), on the other hand, I tend to believe at least %80 of what is being said in CNN.
Example: I am sitting here being well heated while the people of Kiev are sitting in candle-lit bar and have no heating at night (at temperature reaching -10 C), and the government is telling those who can to move to farmlands where they can burn wood and coal inside their houses, and this is happening as a result of Russian strikes on energy facilities.
- Is this news / fact / ethical-independent journalism or not?

[Leonardo17]

Belarus has sent 158 tanks to Donetsk and Russia. At the rate the Russians are losing tanks, this reinforcement will last about two weeks.

Boru

- Many of these date from the 60’s and 70’s (they are a thank collectors dreams in fact) and many end up being captured by Ukrainians because the morale of Russian troops are so low.

[Leonardo17]

The Basic Principles of War Propaganda

1. We don't want war, we are only defending ourselves!
2. Our adversary is solely responsible for this war!
3. Our adversary's leader is inherently evil and resembles the devil
4. We are defending a noble cause, not our particular interests!
5. The enemy is purposefully committing atrocities; if we are making mistakes this happens without intention
6. The enemy makes use of illegal weapons
7. We suffer few losses, the enemy's losses are considerable
8. Recognized intellectuals and artists support our cause
9. Our cause is sacred
10. Whoever casts doubt on our propaganda helps the enemy and is a traitor

-- based on Arthur Ponsenby's 1928 book Falsehood in Wartime

Looks like nothing has changed.

1. Did world leaders try (and are still trying / including countries like China) to convince Putin to stop the war?
2. They’re not even adversaries. Ukrainians and Russians are closely related (historically and ethnically)
3. No. He is still not Kim Jon Un. He is still not (entirely) the regime in Iran. But his primary damage is to the Russian people. That’s how I see it. (He uses poison on his enemies. Like the Roman emperor Nero who died of poison, poison)
4. No it’s our interest we are defending. I think this must be crystal clear by now.
5. No. They are undisciplined and have very low morale. And even without this, The Russian army is historically known for it’s extremes.
6. Not yet. And as Joe Biden puts it. Don’t, Don’t and Don’t. (I wouldn’t)
7. Wrong. As many Ukrainians are dying as Russians. And all of them have someone (just like the Russians being sent there without any proper training or equipment)
8. This isn’t funny.
9. No. I am only saying that if I want to change my government. I should be able to do it without shedding the blood of thousands of people in the street. This is my cause. There is nothing really “sacred” in it.
10. Yes. I don’t think anyone can say anything in Ukraine today. But this is war time.

Do some legal and philosophical studies. Try “the social contract” by J.J. Rousseau.
Is Putin the Social Contract of the Russian people? (your answer)

[Leonardo17]

Last post of belaqua: You just said something about me I guess but I can assure you we are definitely not “moving ahead”.

[Belacqua]

2. Our adversary is solely responsible for this war!

Russia is the aggressor. And it did so without a real cause. Period.

This is of course the propagandized view of history which is important to justify US actions. I do not accept it. 

[Belacqua]

Last post of belaqua: You just said something about me I guess but I can assure you we are definitely not “moving ahead”.

https://www.voanews.com/a/erdogan-agrees...98604.html

[The Architect Of Fate]

This is of course the propagandized view of history which is important to justify US actions. I do not accept it. 

We know you don accept reality. But reality nonetheless shows Russia was the aggressor and Nato has done nothing wrong. So what you accept is irrelivant 

[The Architect Of Fate]

https://www.voanews.com/a/erdogan-agrees...98604.html

Wow you mean one dictator is willing to side with another dictator to lower gas prices? But Ultimately nothing is moving forward here Erdogan and Putin will backstab each other six ways from Sunday and the project will prove a disaster and neither will get what they're looking for out of this deal. Russia's economy will still sink and Turkey's gas prices will still be too high. There is no sunshine to be found here.


Evidence of that possible backstabbing already 

https://www.euractiv.com/section/energy/...urkstream/

[arewethereyet]

2. Our adversary is solely responsible for this war!

Russia is the aggressor. And it did so without a real cause. Period.

This is of course the propagandized view of history which is important to justify US actions. I do not accept it. 

Everything...all the ills of the whole wide world are the fault of the US.  

[The Architect Of Fate]

This is of course the propagandized view of history which is important to justify US actions. I do not accept it. 

Everything...all the ills of the whole wide world are the fault of the US.  

ADS is one hell of a drug