Russia and Ukraine

[The Grand Nudger]

But look what's happening: free speech is being severely curtailed in the US. First they came for those who spoke against genocide and ethnic cleansing

Russia is engaged in a genocidal campaign to erase ukranian identity, which the kremlin and putin say is not an actual thing.  Yet here you are.

People are getting massacred, because the US and Israel prefer a country that's weak and in chaos over a country whose resources they can't control.

Remind me, who invaded ukraine? Was it the us? Was it israel? No, ofc not. That would be russia. How do you think the us should respond. Help them, or become the kremlins ally and force them to surrender to their own butchers? Why, the second thing, naturally!

You're living in la-la land Bel...but even within that carefully curated reality your position on the russo-ukrainian war doesn't make sense.

[Sheldon]

Belacqua Wrote:

Just look at those saying that Ukraine could defeat Russia. So much of what people believe is based on passion, partisanship, and wishful thinking.

With the right support they could, the pessimistic proclamations at the start of Putin's war of conquest, is a million miles from what the Ukraine has achieved, and Russia had to pay. This could of course be even better, if we didn't have an amoral narcissist in the Whitehouse, too intent on kissing Putin's arse, and who doesn't care about ordinary people, anywhere, he only cares about how they feel about how brilliant he is, that's how narcissists tend to think.

And look at Syria. Assad was nobody's favorite, but Hillary and Trump and many others warned that getting rid of him would lead to terrible sectarian violence. And look, that's come true.

You do know what a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy is right? Also getting rid of Hitler, resulted in a lot of violence, suffering and misery, does this mean the allies should have let it alone? I am dubious Trump cares about the misery and suffering of others btw. His motives seem always to put himself first.

[The Architect Of Fate]

Benjamin Abelow:
 
I’ve never heard of him. He has just two books on Amazon and he has a master’s degree in Medicine (After a BA in History). So I’m not saying anything but I don’t know
 
NATO Issue.


Populists and fascists do not use the same language we use. Since they are superior to Truth itself when they say “NATO is at our border” it means: “The Imperialistic USA is going to deploy missiles in an area where we were in control in the past”.
 
It’s not a problem if the masses agree and/or truly understand this rhetoric. The only thing that matters is that enough people (in their own country) believe or pretend to believes this BS and keep repeating to one another that “NATO is at their border”.
 
Another similar phrase is “We won’t let LGBT destroy our family structure”. I’m not even going to elaborate you see the point.
 
On Propaganda:
 
Old school communist have this trait in common. When they asked Fidel Catro if there would ever be elections in Cuba when he defeated Batista in 1059 he replied “Para Que?” (For what?).
 
They believe that their ideology in based on the hard as concrete rules of dialectical materialism and that their way of doing things is the only logical way of doing things. So they had these elite or inner circle of the communist party who knew and understood what needed to be done. And they had this feeling of superiority toward the ignored masses who had to be taught and brought to understand the only possible reality.
 
So this is the legacy of the propaganda machine of Putin. That’s how they know to do things. And there is probably even more to it than what I know.
 
Still: Lenin had launched the red terror (for instance) because he believed in some utopian project that he thought could be realized somehow. So why is Putin Brain-…ing his people + the people of the world like any other vulgar dictator in any other part of the world?

About Benjamin Abelow: I understand he's not famous. I repeated his name because it looked as though people were changing the subject to talk about Noam Chomsky. Chomsky didn't write that book. It was recommended by a journalist who has read the book, and has a very good track record on these matters. For example, he was not fooled by all the lies about Saddam Hussein's WMDs. 

(Chomsky himself, though he did great work, is such a polarizing figure that I find it's best not to even mention him. People flip out.)

Of course the only way to judge the book would be to read it. 

A lot of people (not only populists and fascists) seem to think they are "superior to truth itself." Just look at those saying that Ukraine could defeat Russia. So much of what people believe is based on passion, partisanship, and wishful thinking. 

Each claim has to be evaluated on its merits. If it's true that NATO has expanded to the border of Russia, and if it's true that NATO countries deploy missiles, and if it's true that the US is imperialistic, then you can't devalue those statements by comparing them to a wildly different claim about LGBT people. These two axioms -- that NATO is Good and LGBT is Good -- may go together in the modern Neoliberal mind, but the truth of the one doesn't depend on the truth of the other. 

As for propaganda, the US is soaked in it, and lots of people believe it. The only way I know to guard against it is to find journalists and academics who have long histories of arguing against the propaganda, who then turned out to be correct. 

The Utopian projects of the 20th century did indeed turn out to be failures, and were often covers for more sinister plans. What is our project now? To bring all of the world's resources under US control, not for utopian reasons, but just because we can? People have been so trained to react like Pavlov's dog when they hear the word teRrorISm that they will gladly give up basic freedoms and endorse violence abroad. 

But look what's happening: free speech is being severely curtailed in the US. First they came for those who spoke against genocide and ethnic cleansing, but who will they come for next? And look at Syria. Assad was nobody's favorite, but Hillary and Trump and many others warned that getting rid of him would lead to terrible sectarian violence. And look, that's come true. People are getting massacred, because the US and Israel prefer a country that's weak and in chaos over a country whose resources they can't control.

The argument about Noam Chomsky was totally unrelated to you linking the book

[The Grand Nudger]

Ukraine was defeating russia before they got any support, and when support has since been held up. The main value of western support is in preventing ukranian deaths.

If I had to weigh in on what I think was the most consequential bit of support - it would have to be counter battery stuff. Russia was an artillery army that went through what they called an artillery genocide. It's difficult to say how many ukranians would have died if russia could have continued to level ukranian cities at the rate they enjoyed at the start of the full scale invasion. Air defense is what they need now. All of it.

[The Architect Of Fate]

A lot of people (not only populists and fascists) seem to think they are "superior to truth itself." Just look at those saying that Ukraine could defeat Russia. So much of what people believe is based on passion, partisanship, and wishful thinking. 

Not based on what we saw with our own eyes, Russia was getting its ass kicked before the US even got involved. You seem to hold to the delusion that Russia is unbeatable or something, but if that were the case. The war should have been over quickly. It wasn't before America did anything. Russia's own military failures were apparent and crippling heck even its earlier invasion of Crimea was a shit show of military incompetence. You were clearly seeing a different war then we were.

[The Grand Nudger]

The western defense industrial complex got to him, lol. In fairness, it got to us all. No one thought that ukraine would be able to hold out.

[Thumpalumpacus]

With the right support they could, the pessimistic proclamations at the start of Putin's war of conquest, is a million miles from what the Ukraine has achieved, and Russia had to pay. This could of course be even better, if we didn't have an amoral narcissist in the Whitehouse, too intent on kissing Putin's arse, and who doesn't care about ordinary people, anywhere, he only cares about how they feel about how brilliant he is, that's how narcissists tend to think.

To be fair, Biden spent three goddamned years dripfeeding weapons to Ukraine. For any weapon system, you'd first hear six months of we can't do that, it could start a general war, then we'd get three months of we're considering it, and then three months of they're approved, they just need to start arriving and training up.

The Biden Administration dragged its feet for literally a year on F-16s, and half-a-year on M1 Abrams and HIMARS. And when it supplied HIMARS, those came with the shorter-range missiles, and a set of targeting restrictions (as if we didn't learn how stupid that is in Vietnam).

The reason Ukraine is where it is today -- at the mercy of Trump's whimsy -- is precisely because Biden dd not release our aid in a timely manner. This war could well have been over by the beginning of 2024 had the aid been expedited instead of slow-rolled. You can blame Trump for America's treachery, but you can't blame him for our failure to provide timely aid.

[Deesse23]

Same for Scholz and Germany