Russia and Ukraine

[arewethereyet]

I want to know how much Putin is paying Bel.

[The Architect Of Fate]

I want to know how much Putin is paying Bel.

Not enough 

[Leonardo17]

Last post of belaqua: You just said something about me I guess but I can assure you we are definitely not “moving ahead”.

https://www.voanews.com/a/erdogan-agrees...98604.html

   The current Turkish president (By the way, we call him “president” because he has changed the traditional parliamentary system in Turkey to switch to a “presidential” system that is based on the concentration of powers in a single individual and the use of widespread political oppression and censorship / Usually, it is the “prime minister” who fulfills this “head of state” role in the Turkish Republic), so this gentlemen is looking for some foreign distractions to present himself to the economically deprived people of Turkey as a world leader. Last year there were rumors of huge natural gas reserves being discovered in the black sea. Today there is this pipeline story. Yet, the filling of the gas tank of an ordinary car costs about 100 $. Natural gas is also very expensive. Electricity prices have increased to a point where many people are simply unable to pay their bills. Not to mention the 3 nuclear plants that were built by the Russians in a country that faces regular seismic events. What I mean is that our president doesn’t really know what he is doing. He and his allies are robbing the country and the entire country is facing an economic crisis at a magnitude that is even worse than the economic crisis that brought this ruling party to power in the early 2000’s.

   So one day he attacks Israel. The other day he signs a treaty with putin that will make us a place like the UAE or Kuwait and telling us that we will be riding Mercedes Benz cars instead of camels / donkeys etc… Even his supporters are used to this lies so if you want to do there you must get used to too.

[Leonardo17]

More on Russia's cooperation with Turkey to supply energy to the EU.

https://thecradle.co/Article/Analysis/17322

- The EU is looking for other sources actually. Like Saudi Arabia, African countries, Algeria, the U.S. even South America. And in the long run, they want to be free of their dependence on fossil energies. That’s why they are extending the lifespan of some nuclear plants there were supposedly going to be closed this year.
The grave mistake that Putin made is this: Why wouldn’t he play nice with the Germans, keep making money and than use that money to develop and modernize his country?
So Putin is not only an aggressor. He is a man whose intelligence is also not so bright.

[Belacqua]

Why wouldn’t he play nice with the Germans, keep making money and than use that money to develop and modernize his country?
So Putin is not only an aggressor. He is a man whose intelligence is also not so bright.

He did play nice with the Germans. He was happy to keep selling them gas and the Germans were happy to buy it.

Why do you say he didn't play nice?

[Leonardo17]

Your method of defending your stance is obviously to try to outtalk everyone.  You were leaving this discussion then ramped up.

BLAH, BLAH, BLAH.

Bel is so fortunate to be the only person in the world immune to propaganda.

Boru

There is a small note I am willing to add somewhere.
1) I don’t visit news websites that I have never heard off. Although I have a good AV software I don’t want my IP address to be known by any element I don’t really know on the internet.
2) In the beginning of the 2000’s there were some sects that would organize movie watching sessions in some college campuses for students. If someone wanted to leave the room before the “presentation movie” had ended, they would try to persuade to watch the movie until the end. The reason for this is that the “presentation movie” contained a lot of subliminal messages and images that would induce some sort of hypnotic state and make viewers agree with the ideas presented in the “informative video” of this religious sect.
   So as I matter of principle, If I don’t know the source of any video on the internet, I don’t watch it.
(just as a small parenthesis)

[Deesse23]

More on Russia's cooperation with Turkey to supply energy to the EU.

https://thecradle.co/Article/Analysis/17322

Stop with the clickbaiting, troll.

Tell us what you, or your propaganda sources, have to say, period. Make a short summary. shouldnt be too hard fo rsomeone with your (alleged) intellect and (alleged) civility.
Its not that effing hard, is it?

Other people also respond with their own views, in text form. Please return the courtesy if possible, if your sense of grandeur allows it.

[Leonardo17]

Why does Russia feel threatened??

I expect if you look at Libya or Iraq or Syria or Afghanistan, and what the US has done there recently, the possibility of America attempting regime change in your country would seem undesirable. Generally the US wants other countries to have rulers which take orders from the US, so that the IMF and other American-controlled institutions can control their economies. They privatize the nation's resources and make sure the profits never go to the people of the country. 

Losing control of your own country and having it become a puppet of people who don't really care about anything other than resource extraction wouldn't be most people's first choice. 

Think of Allende 1973, for example.

Russia has a large amount of valuable energy. If they are able to freely sell it when and where they wish they have more power than the US wants them to have. It reduces America's control of western Europe and encourages new alliances with BRICS countries in which the US has far less sway. 

It doesn't seem surprising to me that most Russians would like to preserve their national sovereignty in fact as well as in name. Putin is popular at home, but even people who aren't crazy about him are probably even less excited about becoming a de facto colony of the US. 

Or there was Whitlam in 1975 who found out that winning an election isn't protection against the CIA kicking you out of a job. Or Hatoyama in 2010, who discovered that attempting to enact the will of the people in Okinawa can get you out on your ear right away if Hillary Clinton tells you to stop.

Unless the Russia High Command believed that their military really could take over Ukraine... which is now clearly not so. 

I understand that the armchair generals have a very clear view of the future. I am skeptical. Much of what I read seems based on propaganda-fueled fantasy and wishful thinking. History teaches that underestimating Russia seldom works out well. 

There is of course the possibility that the US would nuke them in order to prevent a takeover of Ukraine. If this happened Russia would lose, but so would everyone else. 

That is why I think there must be another reason for this invasion.

What is this reason?

“ I expect if you look at Libya or Iraq or Syria or Afghanistan, and what the US has done there recently, the possibility of America attempting regime change in your country would seem undesirable. Generally the US wants other countries to have rulers which take orders from the US, so that the IMF and other American-controlled institutions can control their economies. They privatize the nation's resources and make sure the profits never go to the people of the country. “
 
 1)  I just read this article today. Some important spokesman from the Whitehouse was saying that the US did not have plans for a regime change in Iran and the article was underlining the fact that the US “did not have a magic wand in its hand”. So even in the case of a murderous regime like Iran, there is simply few things that can be done from the outside because any act of invasion would be interpreted as the denial of that people’s right of self-determination.
   Still I, as a citizen I believe that the regimes of Iran and Afghanistan should be treated much more severely not only by the US, but by everyone else too. Simply because they are tyrannical regimes who are harming their own population more than anything they are actually able to do to the outside world.
 
2) I am not going to answer to everything. But it was Russia who stopped the Syrian regime from collapsing (at a very high human cost), Russia and Pakistan backed the Taliban in Afghanistan. The Iraq and Afghan operation were the errors of George W. Bush. But still it is Iran who is messing Iraq today.
 
So yes international policies are a mess. That’s why the world needs a more stable and down to earth Russia (and Iran) if were are to achieve anything that is different from the second half of the 20th century during the first half of this century in the middle east.

[Belacqua]

So as I matter of principle, If I don’t know the source of any video on the internet, I don’t watch it.
(just as a small parenthesis)

Knowing the source is the first step. You also have to know the source's motivation. And it helps if you know where their money is coming from.

Certain sources are obvious. The New York Times, for example, is the voice of the ruling elite.

[Belacqua]

That’s why the world needs a more stable and down to earth Russia (and Iran)

And US. Yes, I agree.