Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: August 18, 2022, 5:50 am

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
RE: A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
(March 20, 2022 at 3:30 am)Helios Wrote: It's more possible now to punish heads of state or  powerful people than it's ever been

The Iraq War started 19 years ago this week.

None of the people who lied to start it has been held accountable.

The journalists who accurately predicted what would happen (e.g. Chris Hedges) were fired, while those who supported the lies were promoted. 

It is NOT more possible now to hold powerful people accountable.
Reply
RE: A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
Quote:The Iraq War started 19 years ago this week.

None of the people who lied to start it has been held accountable.

The journalists who accurately predicted what would happen (e.g. Chris Hedges) were fired, while those who supported the lies were promoted. 

It is NOT more possible now to hold powerful people accountable.
Compare now to any of the tyrants and mass murderers of ages past. There is no comparison  Dodgy
“The sun from far gives life. But get close to it and it burns anything down to ashes”

[Image: flag-ukraine_1f1fa-1f1e6.png]  Heart [Image: canada-google.png]        

 “No matter what men think, abortion is a fact of life. Women have always had them; they always have and they always will. Are they going to have good ones or bad ones? Will the good ones be reserved for the rich, while the poor women go to quacks?”
–SHIRLEY CHISHOLM


      
Reply
RE: A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
(March 20, 2022 at 4:10 am)Belacqua Wrote:
(March 20, 2022 at 3:30 am)Helios Wrote: It's more possible now to punish heads of state or  powerful people than it's ever been

The Iraq War started 19 years ago this week.

None of the people who lied to start it has been held accountable.

The journalists who accurately predicted what would happen (e.g. Chris Hedges) were fired, while those who supported the lies were promoted. 

It is NOT more possible now to hold powerful people accountable.

Live babies being taken out of incubators; ironically, similar false claims were, as I recall, made to justify involvement in World War I. Also, "Remember the Maine! To hell with Spain!" And, by the way, those U2 flights were really about weather research.

Plato, in the Republic, said lying politicians were okay, and that such is necessary.
And without delay Peter went quickly out of the synagogue (assembly) and went unto the house of Marcellus, where Simon lodged: and much people followed him...And Peter turned unto the people that followed him and said: Ye shall now see a great and marvellous wonder. And Peter seeing a great dog bound with a strong chain, went to him and loosed him, and when he was loosed the dog received a man's voice and said unto Peter: What dost thou bid me to do, thou servant of the unspeakable and living God? Peter said unto him: Go in and say unto Simon in the midst of his company: Peter saith unto thee, Come forth abroad, for thy sake am I come to Rome, thou wicked one and deceiver of simple souls. And immediately the dog ran and entered in, and rushed into the midst of them that were with Simon, and lifted up his forefeet and in a loud voice said: Thou Simon, Peter the servant of Christ who standeth at the door saith unto thee: Come forth abroad, for thy sake am I come to Rome, thou most wicked one and deceiver of simple souls. And when Simon heard it, and beheld the incredible sight, he lost the words wherewith he was deceiving them that stood by, and all of them were amazed. (The Acts of Peter, 9)
Reply
RE: A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
(March 20, 2022 at 7:24 am)Jehanne Wrote: Plato, in the Republic, said lying politicians were okay, and that such is necessary.

As I recall he proposes one, and only one, "Noble Lie," at Stephanus 414b-c.

This is basically a founding myth -- sort of like "We all came over on the Mayflower looking for religious freedom" -- that Socrates felt would be useful for the unity of the polis. 

If you can find any other instances of Socrates recommending falsehoods I'd be interested to hear. He certainly never said that elites should lie with impunity to enrich themselves and harm others.
Reply
RE: A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
(March 20, 2022 at 8:13 am)Belacqua Wrote:
(March 20, 2022 at 7:24 am)Jehanne Wrote: Plato, in the Republic, said lying politicians were okay, and that such is necessary.

As I recall he proposes one, and only one, "Noble Lie," at Stephanus 414b-c.

This is basically a founding myth -- sort of like "We all came over on the Mayflower looking for religious freedom" -- that Socrates felt would be useful for the unity of the polis. 

If you can find any other instances of Socrates recommending falsehoods I'd be interested to hear. He certainly never said that elites should lie with impunity to enrich themselves and harm others.

He may have told only one, but that lie would have had to be told and retold countless times and in countless ways for the Republic. If you take it literally, anyway.
[Image: Fenrir-sign.jpg]
Reply
RE: A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
(March 20, 2022 at 3:02 am)Fake Messiah Wrote:
(March 19, 2022 at 6:33 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: Islam forbids killing women even if they are enemy combatants, does your modern court system do that?

According to sharia, stuff like apostasy and adultery are punishable by death, even if you are a woman.

For example:

In Pakistan, 1,000 women die in ‘honor killings’ annually.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morn...happening/

It's quite disturbing.
From a documentary that I had seen, in Pakistan, they often buy concentrated sulfuric acid and throw it at the face of the girl or their wife.
Washing it off quickly as possible helps but concentrated sulfuric acid is very hygroscopic and it generates a lot of heat as it combines with the water in your skin and under your skin.

In Pakistan, there was one case where the husband shot to death his wife in the fields. He was taken to court and payed his way out by giving a cow. He killed her bc he looked at another man.

In Quebec, and probably any european style state and country, there are always women being shot to death by their ex-husband or ex-boyfriends. These aren’t religion motivated killings.
I know that in Quebec there are protection programs for women where they take them to certain locations. I don’t know if they change their identity like they do in witness protection programs.

But still, a few years ago, the ex-boyfriend found out where such a house was located. He went and shot the woman. She died.


Source:
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/sha...-new-trial

^^^^^There is this case. They are from Afghanistan. Father has 2 wives. The father, wife #2, the son work together to kill 3 of their daughters and wife #1.
They somehow put the 3 daughters + wife #1 in a car and rolled them into a river in Kingston, Ontario.
The reason is that the girls have cellphones and take pictures of themselves, they dress in western styles, the 2 oldest daughters have a boyfriend. The wife #1 was fine with that lifestyle.

They showed the police interview tapes. All 3 were lying to the police.
Honor killings ....my ass.
Reply
RE: A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
(March 20, 2022 at 8:43 am)Angrboda Wrote:
(March 20, 2022 at 8:13 am)Belacqua Wrote: As I recall he proposes one, and only one, "Noble Lie," at Stephanus 414b-c.

This is basically a founding myth -- sort of like "We all came over on the Mayflower looking for religious freedom" -- that Socrates felt would be useful for the unity of the polis. 

If you can find any other instances of Socrates recommending falsehoods I'd be interested to hear. He certainly never said that elites should lie with impunity to enrich themselves and harm others.

He may have told only one, but that lie would have had to be told and retold countless times and in countless ways for the Republic. If you take it literally, anyway.

He was definitely correct about the need for physical education.
And without delay Peter went quickly out of the synagogue (assembly) and went unto the house of Marcellus, where Simon lodged: and much people followed him...And Peter turned unto the people that followed him and said: Ye shall now see a great and marvellous wonder. And Peter seeing a great dog bound with a strong chain, went to him and loosed him, and when he was loosed the dog received a man's voice and said unto Peter: What dost thou bid me to do, thou servant of the unspeakable and living God? Peter said unto him: Go in and say unto Simon in the midst of his company: Peter saith unto thee, Come forth abroad, for thy sake am I come to Rome, thou wicked one and deceiver of simple souls. And immediately the dog ran and entered in, and rushed into the midst of them that were with Simon, and lifted up his forefeet and in a loud voice said: Thou Simon, Peter the servant of Christ who standeth at the door saith unto thee: Come forth abroad, for thy sake am I come to Rome, thou most wicked one and deceiver of simple souls. And when Simon heard it, and beheld the incredible sight, he lost the words wherewith he was deceiving them that stood by, and all of them were amazed. (The Acts of Peter, 9)
Reply
RE: A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
(March 20, 2022 at 7:24 am)Jehanne Wrote:
(March 20, 2022 at 4:10 am)Belacqua Wrote: The Iraq War started 19 years ago this week.

None of the people who lied to start it has been held accountable.

The journalists who accurately predicted what would happen (e.g. Chris Hedges) were fired, while those who supported the lies were promoted. 

It is NOT more possible now to hold powerful people accountable.

Live babies being taken out of incubators; ironically, similar false claims were, as I recall, made to justify involvement in World War I.  Also, "Remember the Maine! To hell with Spain!"  And, by the way, those U2 flights were really about weather research.

Plato, in the Republic, said lying politicians were okay, and that such is necessary.

That is an example of where the system is faulty.
Going to war with Iraq is a state level decision and to hold accountable the people involved, you usually need a state level organization that can take them to court.
Or, you need the population of the USA to protest until some state level organization does something about it. However, the population is busy with their daily lives, going shopping, watching sports, take the kid to kindergarden, ....
So, the number of citizens who care and will protest is probably very low.
At the UN level, the USA has many friends and those friends probably do not want to upset the USA.

We also have to take the news outlets into account. They were telling us how evil Sadam Hussein is. So, it made it look like a good idea to bombard Iraq. The reality is that many innocent people who aren’t interested in fighting died.

Take the case of Ukraine vs Russia. Every news channel tells us how evil and mad Putin is. What they don’t tell us is that there was peace just a few years ago. The problem was initiated by an anti-russian policy from Ukraine in ~Jan 2014 and later on, they tried to join NATO.
It is part of USA foreign policy to get every ex-Soviet nation to join it and to isolate Russia.
What’s the purpose of NATO? The Russians probably see it as an organization that wants to setup an army to invade Russia.

Take the case of Armenia vs Azerbaijan in Sep 2020. Azerbaijan continually attacks the Artsakh-Kharabagh region and is trying to take it back.
What the news outlets don’t tell you:
According to the UN, Artsakh-Kharabagh belongs to Azerbaijan.
According to who? Soviet Russia, I think it was during Stalin’s time, gave some Armenia’s land to Azerbaijan, some to Georgia.
Why does the UN respect that decision?
There are ancient maps that show those regions were part of Armenia.

That issue started with the breakup of the Soviet union in 1991. How is it that the UN is backing Azerbaijan? Is it because of the petrol fields? Armenia has none and Azerbaijan has plenty.

CONCLUSION: At the international level, at the presidential level, politics gets dirty and news media tend to misrepresent or choose what to present and what not to present to people.
Reply
RE: A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
(March 22, 2022 at 9:23 pm)Ferrocyanide Wrote: Take the case of Armenia vs Azerbaijan in Sep 2020. Azerbaijan continually attacks the Artsakh-Kharabagh region and is trying to take it back.
What the news outlets don’t tell you:
According to the UN, Artsakh-Kharabagh belongs to Azerbaijan.
According to who? Soviet Russia, I think it was during Stalin’s time, gave some Armenia’s land to Azerbaijan, some to Georgia.
Why does the UN respect that decision?
There are ancient maps that show those regions were part of Armenia.

That issue started with the breakup of the Soviet union in 1991. How is it that the UN is backing Azerbaijan? Is it because of the petrol fields? Armenia has none and Azerbaijan has plenty.

CONCLUSION: At the international level, at the presidential level, politics gets dirty and news media tend to misrepresent or choose what to present and what not to present to people.
You dont seem to know the basics of international law. That does not make this a conspiracy, it just shows your ignorance.
There is an antidote to this (ignorance)
Cetero censeo religionem delendam esse
Reply
RE: A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
I don't agree, in the slightest, with what Putin is doing to the Ukraine, but, I remember well the vilification of the Sandinistas by the Ronald Reagan administration in the 80s. As such, I don't know who or what to believe in this conflict; clearly, Ukraine is a divided country; separatists in the east support Russia while others westward want to be fully Western.
And without delay Peter went quickly out of the synagogue (assembly) and went unto the house of Marcellus, where Simon lodged: and much people followed him...And Peter turned unto the people that followed him and said: Ye shall now see a great and marvellous wonder. And Peter seeing a great dog bound with a strong chain, went to him and loosed him, and when he was loosed the dog received a man's voice and said unto Peter: What dost thou bid me to do, thou servant of the unspeakable and living God? Peter said unto him: Go in and say unto Simon in the midst of his company: Peter saith unto thee, Come forth abroad, for thy sake am I come to Rome, thou wicked one and deceiver of simple souls. And immediately the dog ran and entered in, and rushed into the midst of them that were with Simon, and lifted up his forefeet and in a loud voice said: Thou Simon, Peter the servant of Christ who standeth at the door saith unto thee: Come forth abroad, for thy sake am I come to Rome, thou most wicked one and deceiver of simple souls. And when Simon heard it, and beheld the incredible sight, he lost the words wherewith he was deceiving them that stood by, and all of them were amazed. (The Acts of Peter, 9)
Reply



Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  My Almighty VS your argument against it Won2blv 43 1431 May 5, 2022 at 9:13 am
Last Post: The Grand Nudger
  Atheism and the existence of peanut butter Klorophyll 710 26479 April 6, 2022 at 8:57 am
Last Post: Helios
  What is the best counter argument against "What do you lose by believing?" Macoleco 25 1138 May 1, 2021 at 8:05 pm
Last Post: The Grand Nudger
  How may one refute the religious stonewall argument "all is one"? Osopatata 29 1690 December 21, 2020 at 4:05 pm
Last Post: HappySkeptic
  Arguments against Soul FlatAssembler 327 13266 February 20, 2020 at 11:28 am
Last Post: The Grand Nudger
  The Argument Against Evil-lution no one 19 1939 January 5, 2020 at 7:58 am
Last Post: Gawdzilla Sama
  How to easily defeat any argument for God Tom Fearnley 629 13390 November 22, 2019 at 9:27 pm
Last Post: Tom Fearnley
  Arguments Against Creator God GrandizerII 77 15571 November 16, 2019 at 9:38 am
Last Post: The Grand Nudger
Information The Best Logique Evidence of God Existence Nogba 225 14192 August 2, 2019 at 11:44 am
Last Post: comet
  Atheists being asked about the existence of Jesus Der/die AtheistIn 154 10618 January 24, 2019 at 1:30 pm
Last Post: The Grand Nudger



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)