How many of you would punish religious people for being religious?

[Belacqua]

There are atheists on the Internet who say that raising a child with religion is child abuse. 

Child abuse is illegal. 

So if they're serious in what they say, and not just talking shit for effect, then they advocate the involvement of the government (like Child Family Services) to intervene with, if not punish, religious parents.

Atheists on the internet? We're setting the bar pretty low aren't we? Wouldn't you be annoyed with an argument premised on "theists on the internet say x"?

And you'd be justified in thinking that. Because it's strawmanning.

As you can see, it's hard to get a straight answer here.

Fake obviously thinks that raising a child in a religion is child abuse. But we knew he would say that.

Valkyrie seems to equate "religion" with "cutting a child's forehead," which is a practice done within a certain religion, but not, I think, something essential with or contiguous to religion. 

Boru brings up circumcision, without any argument as to whether or not it's child abuse, or relevant in any way.

Helios wants to talk about his own thing and doesn't want to address the issue. 

So the subject was that Dawkins, among other atheists, believes that raising a child within a religion is child abuse. No one wants to say that he's wrong. 

If he's right, and it's child abuse, then religious parents should be punished.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Atheists on the internet? We're setting the bar pretty low aren't we? Wouldn't you be annoyed with an argument premised on "theists on the internet say x"?

And you'd be justified in thinking that. Because it's strawmanning.

As you can see, it's hard to get a straight answer here.

Fake obviously thinks that raising a child in a religion is child abuse. But we knew he would say that.

Valkyrie seems to equate "religion" with "cutting a child's forehead," which is a practice done within a certain religion, but not, I think, something essential with or contiguous to religion. 

Boru brings up circumcision, without any argument as to whether or not it's child abuse, or relevant in any way.

Helios wants to talk about his own thing and doesn't want to address the issue. 

So the subject was that Dawkins, among other atheists, believes that raising a child within a religion is child abuse. No one wants to say that he's wrong. 

If he's right, and it's child abuse, then religious parents should be punished.

I'll say it: Dawkins is wrong about this. People who agree with Dawkins (on this) are wrong.

On the other thing, I brought up circumcision in response to the claim that spilling the blood of a defenseless child does not equal religion. It IS part of several religions and - as I said - in Judaism it is directly mandated by God.

I'm not sure how the permanent disfigurement of an infant's genitals for no other reason that to fulfill a religious dictum doesn't qualify as child abuse.

Boru

[GUBU]

Unlike you christians we don't punish people for what they are, but for what they do.

We would incarcerate child rapists and leave heterodox thinkers alone.

---

Would you punish/torment religious people, if you could? How far does your disdain for religion go?

There are atheists on the Internet who say that raising a child with religion is child abuse. 

Child abuse is illegal. 

So if they're serious in what they say, and not just talking shit for effect, then they advocate the involvement of the government (like Child Family Services) to intervene with, if not punish, religious parents.

Well then why is it pretty much mandatory for anybody in a position of power in christian denominations?

[Fake Messiah]

Belacqua just doesn't understand how democracy works.

[Losty]

So? Is that supposed to convince me or someone else?

What do you imagine I'm trying to convince you of?

Here is what I'm saying:

Some atheists believe that raising children in a religion is child abuse.

Child abuse is bad, and punishable by law.

Therefore, some atheists believe that religious parents should be punished.

I don’t know… indoctrinating children is morally wrong imo. That goes for any type of indoctrination not just religion. I wouldn’t call it child abuse in most cases. I do think some people torment children with all the burning in hell shit and I do consider that to be morally child abuse but it’s hard to say it should be legally considered child abuse because it seems dangerous to set laws about what things you can and cannot teach your children.

[Belacqua]

I don’t know… indoctrinating children is morally wrong imo. That goes for any type of indoctrination not just religion. 

Yes, granted -- but "indoctrinate" kind of has the nuance of "bad teaching" built into it. People who really believe their religion just think they're teaching the truth. 

I mean, flat-earthers would say that parents shouldn't teach the shape of the earth until a child is old enough to make up its own mind. But we who are confident find that silly.

I wouldn’t call it child abuse in most cases. I do think some people torment children with all the burning in hell shit and I do consider that to be morally child abuse but it’s hard to say it should be legally considered child abuse because it seems dangerous to set laws about what things you can and cannot teach your children.

Agreed. It's certainly possible to use religious concepts to torment children. I wish people wouldn't do that, but as you say, having authorities make them stop is a dangerous step.

It may be that if a child is abused with religion, he is somewhat more likely to grow into an adult for whom "atheist" is an important part of his self-identity. Such people might be more likely to think of a religious upbringing as harmful, just because it was in their own case. (I was raised completely without religion, but if I wrote out a page of adjectives about myself, I wouldn't include "atheist" -- it's not "who I am.") 

I don't know how we'd quantify the number of people who were raised in a religion who found it comforting, or an overall positive experience. I know some such people.

[abaris]

I don’t know… indoctrinating children is morally wrong imo.

Education is by itself "indoctrination". You impose values on a child. These may, from a societal standpoint, be good or bad values. But with every step of bringing up a child, you instill something of your own views in them.

I was brought up as being tolerant towards others. Others may have been brought up to hate certain groups of people. Be it ideological, be it religious. A child can't escape being indoctrinated, even if they grow up in the most tolerant family on earth.

[Losty]

I don’t know… indoctrinating children is morally wrong imo.

Education is by itself "indoctrination". You impose values on a child. These may, from a societal standpoint, be good or bad values. But with every step of bringing up a child, you instill something of your own views in them.

I was brought up as being tolerant towards others. Others may have been brought up to hate certain groups of people. Be it ideological, be it religious. A child can't escape being indoctrinated, even if they grow up in the most tolerant family on earth.

Education itself is not the problem, the problem comes when you teach a child to believe something without questioning it. That is where indoctrination differs, teaching a child to accept something uncritically is harmful not only in that area but for their general critical thinking skills also. My point wasn’t really about tolerance or good vs bad values. My point is that when I teach my children, I always remind them that their teachers, their school curriculum and yes even their mother is not infallible so it’s important before they decide their own thoughts, feelings and beliefs that they ask themselves why. When you raise a child to accept beliefs without questioning them they learn to let other people think for them.

[zebo-the-fat]

It's important to teach children the things they need to know, but it is just as importent to teach them to question the things they are taught

[abaris]

It's important to teach children the things they need to know, but it is just as importent to teach them to question the things they are taught

That's how I was brought up.