How many of you would punish religious people for being religious?

[Ahriman]

No it doesn't!

besides the atoms that make up my body existed 200 years ago and will still exist in 200 years

Why would you even just want to die, and that's it? Nothing else? That would be fucking boring.

[Losty]

I don’t know… indoctrinating children is morally wrong imo. That goes for any type of indoctrination not just religion. 

Yes, granted -- but "indoctrinate" kind of has the nuance of "bad teaching" built into it. People who really believe their religion just think they're teaching the truth. 

I mean, flat-earthers would say that parents shouldn't teach the shape of the earth until a child is old enough to make up its own mind. But we who are confident find that silly.

I wouldn’t call it child abuse in most cases. I do think some people torment children with all the burning in hell shit and I do consider that to be morally child abuse but it’s hard to say it should be legally considered child abuse because it seems dangerous to set laws about what things you can and cannot teach your children.

Agreed. It's certainly possible to use religious concepts to torment children. I wish people wouldn't do that, but as you say, having authorities make them stop is a dangerous step.

It may be that if a child is abused with religion, he is somewhat more likely to grow into an adult for whom "atheist" is an important part of his self-identity. Such people might be more likely to think of a religious upbringing as harmful, just because it was in their own case. (I was raised completely without religion, but if I wrote out a page of adjectives about myself, I wouldn't include "atheist" -- it's not "who I am.") 

I don't know how we'd quantify the number of people who were raised in a religion who found it comforting, or an overall positive experience. I know some such people.

The majority of people I know are people who are raised with religion and find it comforting. I’ve done team building exercises where we use words to describe ourselves and I never choose atheist as one of my words. I have a lot of things that come to mind and that’s never one of them. I just happen to not believe it has nothing to do with who I am as a person. But I was raised in a way that religion was abusive and harmful and I certainly went through a time period where atheism played a bigger role in my life. I still don’t think it was ever important enough to be a part of my self identity. Honestly, I don’t think religion or lack of religion plays any part in whether or not a child is abused. Imo people of all types of beliefs are capable of raising stable, loved, respected and well taken care of children.

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It's important to teach children the things they need to know, but it is just as importent to teach them to question the things they are taught

Abaris is right, though, that education happens all the time, often in unintentional ways. Kids soak up a lot. 

If a kid asks you what kind of flower this is, you just say what it is. You don't say "It's a tulip but you should keep in mind that I may be wrong." You just say what you think is true.

They learn pretty quickly that people can be wrong. I knew a little girl who asked her mom "where did I come from?" and her mom said "from inside my tummy" and the little girl said, "Yeah, I don't think so." 

If people sincerely believe that their religion is true, then they just tell their kids what they think is true. If the kids later on hear good reasons to doubt, then they'll doubt.

I don’t think it’s necessary to point out to your children that you’re capable of fallacy every single time you teach them something. It’s more of an occasional reminder that even parents can be wrong sometimes and it’s important to do your own research and form your own opinions about things. There’s also a difference between fact and belief. If what you’re teaching relies on faith over science or is typically considered an opinion that’s when it becomes useful to say “I think ….. because….., what do you think?”

[Ahriman]

Only the stupid kids fell for the religious stuff. And then the other kids fell for atheism. The intelligent ones in the middle just did their own thing and kept their opinions to themselves.

[Losty]

Only the stupid kids fell for the religious stuff. And then the other kids fell for atheism. The intelligent ones in the middle just did their own thing and kept their opinions to themselves.

I’m not really sure what you’re trying to say with this, but I’m willing to bet literally everything I have that all of the stupid people and all of the intelligent people either believe in some type of religion/deity or they don’t….

[Ahriman]

Only the stupid kids fell for the religious stuff. And then the other kids fell for atheism. The intelligent ones in the middle just did their own thing and kept their opinions to themselves.

I’m not really sure what you’re trying to say with this, but I’m willing to bet literally everything I have that all of the stupid people and all of the intelligent people either believe in some type of religion/deity or they don’t….

Well yeah, I mean, it's OK to believe in some deity or another, but it should be one (or more) of your own choosing, not something that your parents/church tried to make you believe.

[Belacqua]

The majority of people I know are people who are raised with religion and find it comforting. I’ve done team building exercises where we use words to describe ourselves and I never choose atheist as one of my words. I have a lot of things that come to mind and that’s never one of them. I just happen to not believe it has nothing to do with who I am as a person. But I was raised in a way that religion was abusive and harmful and I certainly went through a time period where atheism played a bigger role in my life. I still don’t think it was ever important enough to be a part of my self identity. Honestly, I don’t think religion or lack of religion plays any part in whether or not a child is abused. Imo people of all types of beliefs are capable of raising stable, loved, respected and well taken care of children.

Thank you, this makes a lot of sense to me. 

I'm sorry to hear that religion was harmful for you as a kid. I've never meant to deny that it can be so. 

The way I see things, a lot more about our societies is determined by economics and politics than by religion. Like if you live in a capitalist culture that doesn't value you, then it's likely that the local church will echo those values. The culture takes over the church, rather than the church standing up to the culture. And any set of values is going to produce people who think they know so much better than others that they have the right to punish "deviants," in one way or another. 

If people sincerely believe that their religion is true, then they just tell their kids what they think is true. If the kids later on hear good reasons to doubt, then they'll doubt.I don’t think it’s necessary to point out to your children that you’re capable of fallacy every single time you teach them something. It’s more of an occasional reminder that even parents can be wrong sometimes and it’s important to do your own research and form your own opinions about things. There’s also a difference between fact and belief. If what you’re teaching relies on faith over science or is typically considered an opinion that’s when it becomes useful to say “I think ….. because….., what do you think?”

Yeah, I think a few examples of "gee, I don't know" or "oops, I was wrong" go a long way to a little kid. 

My nephew learned not to trust authority the hard way in about third grade. He tried to correct the science teacher, who was wildly wrong about something, and the teacher said, "Oh don't dump your knowledge in my classroom." He sort of lost his innocence all at once.

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The intelligent ones in the middle just did their own thing and kept their opinions to themselves.

This sounds like advice I'd do well to learn....

[zebo-the-fat]

No it doesn't!

besides the atoms that make up my body existed 200 years ago and will still exist in 200 years

Why would you even just want to die, and that's it? Nothing else? That would be fucking boring.

I don't want to die, I will do all I can to avoid it, but eventually it will happen - maybe in the next 20 minutes or in the next 20 years.
How can not existing any more be boring, I'll be dead so I won't know anything about it!

[Angrboda]

I think there's also an "as if" factor here. It's possible that people who are against religion aren't saying literally that raising someone religiously is child abuse, but rather that it is as harmful to the interests of the child as child abuse. That would be using the language figuratively, rather than literally. Regardless, you don't get to sit in your armchair and decide how seriously people mean their comments about religion and child abuse without asking them. That's just vapid opinionating.

[The Grand Nudger]

I, personally, think that raising a kid in evangelical fundie-ism is child abuse and don't mind saying it - but it's hardly the only form of legally permissible child abuse, and I can't see sending the stormtroopers we call law enforcement into the living rooms of kids who are already getting dealt a shit hand being an improvement. That might have something to do with the effect that very same cultural impulse has had on law enforcement. Bit like taking the hens from the coyotes and giving them to the wolves.

All just shooting the shit, ofc, as the thread is very clearly performance art. "Would any of you do this completely mundane thing literally no one disagrees with? Haha! That means you must do this terrible thing that no one agrees with. Bad atheists, bad!"

[Ahriman]

I, personally, think that raising a kid in evangelical fundie-ism is child abuse and don't mind saying it - but it's hardly the only form of legally permissible child abuse, and I can't see sending the stormtroopers we call law enforcement into the living rooms of kids who are already getting dealt a shit hand being an improvement.  That might have something to do with the effect that very same cultural impulse has had on law enforcement.  Bit like taking the hens from the coyotes and giving them to the wolves.

All just shooting the shit, ofc, as the thread is very clearly performance art.  "Would any of you do this completely mundane thing literally no one disagrees with?  Haha!  That means you must do this terrible thing that no one agrees with.  Bad atheists, bad!"

As with most (if not all) of your content, I really do not understand what you're trying to say.