Why NATO doesn't give to Ukraine plan of membership?

[Peebothuhlu]

At work.

Hello.

Okay I gather that English may not be your first language.

For the benefit of such a doubt do you want help trying to get your above point explained/expanded upon?

Cheers.

no need to explain. Americans are just as dependent on TV as Ukrainians. Just to a lesser extent

Okay. With this reply I see you don't actually understand what NATO is or what the purpose of said alliance is.

When you want to have a conversation and not simply bash stupid Yanks?

Then we can have a chat.

Cheers.

[The Grand Nudger]

It appears to me that the majority of the population in Eastern Ukraine wants to be part of Russia, or at least under Russian control.

By the evidence of what?  Expensive russian occupation of the east lo this past decade or so constantly harassed by insurgent elements and incapable of advancing further into the western portion... as is their intent?  Tellingly, you'll find that in many interviews that people express such sentiments, they say so in the hopes that fighting will end.  Boy golly, I wish we could just join russia so russia doesn't hit us with a careless rocket as they attack us.  

: shrugs : more power to em I guess, they could always move to russia - russians -do- seem to lob fewer rockets at moscow. If I werent so thoroughly indoctrinated I might feel the same way. That anything, even joining the people trying to kill me, was better than being killed by the people trying to kill me. Me, personally, I might even send my family to russia (or whatever country had us by the short and curlies)..quietly, get rid of all of my identifying documents, and live my best insurgent life here in these deep dark hills. Just not a choice I'd feel comfortable making for everyone, you know? Nor one I'd give others shit for declining. I'm in love, I'm already spoken for - says The Wife only half in jest...but I know that it would be ridiculous to think that -everybody- wanted to stick with my favorite girl until death parts us, even if they really did like her more than the other girl.

@Interaktiv

IDK who the us is. I doubt biden would turn on me, and theres little that scholz could do that I would think of as a betrayal of me or even the US. Germany is gonna Germany, as is their right. I think tat global politics takes a slightly more nuanced view when countries pursue their own unique interests even if they're not aligned with or at odds with some other countries. If everytime that happened we took it to be a betrayal then there's no word required for anything other than betrayal because that's all that's ever happening.

As for providing heavy weapons..heavy weapons can inflict heavy casualties and they kill indiscriminantly. They don't spare the civilians. If a NATO country provided ukraine with some weapon..and ukraine said "fuck it, lets be heroes!" and used that system to firebomb a dense urban center in russia...there would be a problem. Not to me, mind you. If the ukranians can pull this off I think they should drive all the way to siberia liberating cultural ukranians and denazifying the russian state - as a joe.

[Jehanne]

I honestly do not know, but, how much civilian resistance is there against Russian in the East? And, how long have the separatists there been fighting against Ukraine proper? What are they fighting over?

[The Grand Nudger]

Less than when russia began pacifying it years ago. There was no home grown separatist revolt in ukraine. There was an invasion of "little green men". It was legitimately smart on russias part - not at all like their current clusterfuck except in the small tactical details - which they took pains to avoid......then. It's entirely of a piece with their recent recognition of the "independent" regions or "breakaway republics" of donetsk and luhansk.

14k people died fighting since that 2014 invasion - and that was before this current invasion. Some of them, I'm sure, just want it to end..and many of them..equally sure, were just as wrong and misinformed in a deeply relevant way about supposed russian greatness and strength as any western pundit at the beginning of this phase of that same conflict.

-but lets run with it, because we probably both default to people having the right to self determination even if their self determinations are idiotic. Suppose you were a breakaway or independant republic that wanted to be recognized..and not jst symbolically or for effect - but..as..in, not bombed to the stone age when you try to make one of those "independent" decisions. Who thinks they'd be better of at that negotiating table with fucking russia.....over ukraine? Russia looking like a nation that suffers independent republics right now?

[Jehanne]

I am not an apologist for Putin, but, not all peoples of our World want Western democratic capitalism.

[abaris]

I honestly do not know, but, how much civilian resistance is there against Russian in the East?  And, how long have the separatists there been fighting against Ukraine proper?  What are they fighting over?

It started in 2014, right after the annexation of the Crimean. It's hard to say, how much resistance there is against the Russians in the East and how many of these pro Russian insurgents are really insurgents and not Russian troops in disguise. Fact is, they're armed and supplied by Russia.

[The Grand Nudger]

I am not an apologist for Putin, but, not all peoples of our World want Western democratic capitalism.

They may actually -not- want western democratic capitalism....and unless eastern democratic capitalism is literally a non thing - as in non-possible, it makes little sense to couch any and every struggle towards democratic or capitalist aims as inherently western.

None of that is particularly relevant to eastern ukraine..where people just (apparently, according to them) want to stop the russians from killing them, even (and maybe especially) if that means joining the russians. That is the deal the russians are offering, at any rate. Bend the knee or die.

[Jehanne]

I am not an apologist for Putin, but, not all peoples of our World want Western democratic capitalism.

They may actually -not- want western democratic capitalism....and unless eastern democratic capitalism is literally a non thing - as in non-possible, it makes little sense to couch any and every struggle towards democratic or capitalist aims as inherently western.

None of that is particularly relevant to eastern ukraine..where people just (apparently, according to them) want to stop the russians from killing them, even (and maybe especially) if that means joining the russians. That is the deal the russians are offering, at any rate. Bend the knee or die.

I suppose that such is the plight of mankind. During the run up to the First Crusade, many Jews chose community suicide over converting to Catholicism. I can only speak for myself; if faced with an overwhelming military force, I may choose to move elsewhere or simply accept the rule of the superior force; fighting and dying may also be an option, if I sincerely believed that my side would win. Fighting with a certain death and defeat is not a particularly appealing option. In this case, it appears that the side who is stronger militarily is going to be the ones who "win".

[The Grand Nudger]

Yeah, sure..but if christians were forcing conversion...would you suggest that...you know...maybe..some jews just want to convert? That explains the forced conversions? Maybe?

Probably not. I know you're a good one, better than me, lol. You dont even think that fighting to the death in a certain defeat against a superior foe is appealing! I hear that...and I just think..."valhalla..I'm comin home". If my enemy is great, am I not even greater for defeating him? If my enemy is great, am I not great for losing..but putting up a fight? This is what russia (and russian propaganda) has defaulted to. Their national psyche cannot handle being defeated by ukranians*....so they insist that this is ww3, that they're fighting american and/or western mujahideen...so on and so forth.



*and never you mention that ukraine is the cultural father of russia....heresy...even though it's hard to contextualize why russia would fight so hard for it, and make such ludicrous statements about it, and spend so much life to retain it.... otherwise. It's just not The Way to point out that russia and even "ukranian separatists" fighting in this conflict are engaged in a particularly strange form of cultural, military, and economic hari-kari. Bu whatever, wild out you crazy sons of bitches, I've met a few of you coming up in St Pete and more still as a peacekeeper in the caucasus..... and that tracks.

[Jehanne]

Converting from one false religion to another equally false one is not appealing to me, but, at the same time, "Paris is worth a Mass". We all know that history is written by the victors; we also know that the ends "justify" the means.

I predict that Russia will win this one, and (nearly) everyone will blame Biden.