Maximizing Moral Virtue

[Pat Mustard]

So you're not a christan, then.  Why argue so vehemently for it?

By what logic have you determined that every Christian must advocate for communism? 

Is it possible for a Christian to believe in the separation of church and state?

It's not me who determined it but the fourth century priests who wrote your holy book.

[The Grand Nudger]

You have no soul

Got me there, ofc..neither do theists. Personally, I think this one's a wash, whether we do or don't have souls we all do -or- don't regardless of belief.

no purpose (beyond the purpose that you create for yourself)

Incorrect. I was born with purpose, raised in purpose, assumed purpose, swore to purpose, and have been given purpose. Frankly, it's a lot to juggle my various responsibilities and duties.

and your life ultimately has no meaning as you are just a random cosmic accident.

Incorrect. You could only mean god-meaning (but like a soul, that would be a wash, we either do or don't have god meaning together regardless of belief). At the risk of simply repeating the above, I've lived a life filled with meaning. Additionally..I'm sure there was quite a bit of volition and intent involved in making me - but I'm sure glad I don't remember it all. One moment in particular.

A mere product of natural selection and sexual bias.

Incorrect. I'm that, ofc, but also so much more. A product of a culture, a product of a time, a product of literature and music. A product of experience and of hope and of endless traveling..... so on and so forth...etc...etc......etc......

So, if these would be the problems with atheism...... then np, right? Let me ask you this, since we've reached this point. Is your summary of the problems with atheism, above, a product of any ideology that maximizes moral virtue, in your estimation? Is this the fruit...? Who's the nihilist? The person who sees value and meaning in life, or the person who asserts that there is none in life, rather...it must be artificially produced by some god or a held belief in the same?

[Aegon]

Atheists talk about how good they are without religion but in all honesty I don't see all that much fruit. In my opinion (and observation) atheism just leads to materialism, nihilism and eventually, depression. You have no soul, no purpose (beyond the purpose that you create for yourself) and your life ultimately has no meaning as you are just a random cosmic accident. A mere product of natural selection and sexual bias.

I'm confused how you reached any of these conclusions. 

I may not believe in a "soul" in the Christian sense but I certainly have consciousness and a sense of self that could be compared to a "soul," as do all other sentient beings. This means that compassion should be prioritized, towards one's self and others.

I am no "random" accident. Nothing is genuinely random, and it's certainly not random just because a creator God didn't make it. Can you name a random event? I can't. "Random" is a relative concept. Everything takes place in one massive, unfathomably complex web of cause and effect. I'm happy to be a part of that chain and I recognize that my words and actions create butterfly effects along that chain. That's quite beautiful. No God required.

As an atheist who doesn't consider himself a strict materialist, I think you're objectively incorrect here. You seem to only have two modes in your head - God-fearing or nothing matters. This subject is more nuanced than you think.

[Alan V]

Atheists talk about how good they are without religion but in all honesty I don't see all that much fruit.

I've been talking with atheists for over 15 years now, ever since I became an atheist myself. Generally, I have heard atheists say they are just as good as other people, not better, but that religions tend to make people worse, i.e. more dishonest because religious people pretend they know things they really don't, including what is good or bad.

In my opinion (and observation) atheism just leads to materialism, nihilism and eventually, depression.

Materialism as a philosophical position is much different than acquisitive materialism, so what you said above is an equivocation. And just because the universe was not created by an over-arching intelligence doesn't mean our lives can't be guided by our own intelligence. So neither nihilism nor depression necessarily follow from atheism. From my perspective, atheism leads to honesty and visa versa.

You have no soul, no purpose (beyond the purpose that you create for yourself) and your life ultimately has no meaning as you are just a random cosmic accident. A mere product of natural selection and sexual bias.

My parents would disagree that I was an accident.

We share an evolved human nature which provides our lives with lots of meanings, including social meanings from various relationships. So meanings are not just "made up." They are relative, sure, but they are also objective.

Religious ideas of what atheism entails are highly biased. The typical Christian ideas of how meaning and morality came to be are really forms of mythologizing, like believing God created the earth.

[The Grand Nudger]

The problem with abrahamic religion is not that people pretend to know good from bad...they actually do... It's that they conflate maximal evil with maximal virtue. Its this, exactly this, and nothing else required....that makes a good person do a terrible thing. We don't even need shitty people in the world to effect a shitty outcome if the good people are equally - if unintentionally, comitted.

[The Architect Of Fate]

You have no soul

Nope and neither do you and why would I even value such a thing?

no purpose (beyond the purpose that you create for yourself)

 Purpose is only what we make for ourselves assigned has no value.

and your life ultimately has no meaning as you are just a random cosmic accident.

Nope I have my purpose and it's all I need and my origins are irrelevant. We are not where we come from we are who we make ourselves.

A mere product of natural selection and sexual bias.

 We are not where we come from we are who we make ourselves.


Your crutch of mystic makebelieve assigns nothing I don't already have in fact I say you have even less than I do.

[The Architect Of Fate]

Atheists talk about how good they are without religion but in all honesty I don't see all that much fruit.

Because you need eyes to see and you are blind 

In my opinion (and observation) atheism just leads to materialism, nihilism and eventually, depression.

Well  that's your poorly informed opinion and nothing else 

You have no soul, no purpose (beyond the purpose that you create for yourself) and your life ultimately has no meaning as you are just a random cosmic accident. A mere product of natural selection and sexual bias.

See my response above

[Alan V]

The problem with abrahamic religion is not that people pretend to know good from bad...they actually do...  It's that they conflate maximal evil with maximal virtue.  It's this, exactly this, and nothing else required....that makes a good person do a terrible thing.  We don't even need shitty people in the world to effect a shitty outcome if the good people are equally - if unintentionally - committed.

In my opinion, religious commands and prohibitions are either too out-dated or too oversimplified to be usefully applied to most situations.  Secular laws do a much better job of defining ethical behaviors.  This is why I dislike seeing religious ideas intrude on legal discussions, about abortion for instance.

Luckily most nominally religious people do not behave in accordance with their over-simplified religious teachings in most instances.  However, this has led to the confusion of religion with commonsense ethical ideas, a confusion conveyed by the original poster's questions.

[bennyboy]

So for this topic we will be accepting the premise that God isn't real, okay now what?

My main question is what should we do to ensure that our children inherit good moral values? Also, how should we run society and education so that we can ensure that our communities don't fall apart?

Without God, then a sense of goodness must be an instinct-- otherwise we'd have no concept of it at all.

Therefore, moral values are those which lead to circumstances which feel good.  I feel guilty when I harm others, and good when I help them, so I consider helping people moral, and hurting them immoral.  I feel good when my wife and children are happy and healthy, and bad when they are unhappy or unhealthy-- so things which will lead to their happiness and health are good.

Then we take a step toward outsiders-- a lack of goodness in other people's lives is an indirect threat to my own.  If EVERYONE can't have happy and healthy children, they may not be willing to see my family thrive.  So contributing to the community, especially to those in trouble, is moral.  Also, by way of empathy, when I see OTHER people's children unhappy and unhealthy, I question the moral worldview of their guardians-- in other words, I pass moral judgment on them, because they fail to share my feelings about what is good.

I think this calculus all comes down to evolution-- those who do NOT care about their children's health and happiness, or do not care about that of others, have compromised reproductive fitness.

[The Grand Nudger]

Without God, then a sense of goodness must be an instinct-- otherwise we'd have no concept of it at all.

Therefore, moral values are those which lead to circumstances which feel good. 

Doesn't follow with or without a god, but it is nice to get the assist from natural compulsions...when natural compulsions aren't the thing telling you to curstomp the neighbors kid, ofc.

I feel guilty when I harm others, and good when I help them, so I consider helping people moral, and hurting them immoral.  I feel good when my wife and children are happy and healthy, and bad when they are unhappy or unhealthy-- so things which will lead to their happiness and health are good.

Sounds healthy as shit.  Imagine if you felt bad when your wife and children were happy.  Would that make your wife and child being happy.....bad?  Similarly, if some other parent passed judgement on you for doing some bad thing you were calling good, on account of it making you feel good, is this where the system of classification breaks down?